Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Med Mentor podcast. This is episode 9, so we’re moving along nicely. I’m Dr. Tracye Lawyer, and I’m a physician at West Beach surgeon in Boise, Idaho. And I have a very, very exciting episode today.
Allie: This one is going to be kind of from a ladies, from from a… Medical students and my aspiring pre-med students. And so this is Allie. Thank you, Allie, for coming. Have a good one.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I know Allie’s story, but I want you guys to hear her story a little bit. She’s a badass, so… And we love it. So I want to ask for kind of a question. And I think it’s going to be really good because we’re going to just talk about kind of like females being in medical school and kind of her path and what she’s interested in and goals.
Allie: But I think it’d be really, really interesting for ladies who are want to go into the surgical specialties.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I think that would be really, really fun to talk about. So thanks. Thanks again for coming. Yeah. So we’re going to start out with some easy questions first year. First question is what year are you in medical school? So I just completed my second year of medical school. We’re in the dedicated right now studying for…
Allie: I’m going to take both level and step one because I’m a D.O. student.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I’ll take both level and step and then start third year in a couple months.
Allie: That’s exciting. I know. It’s always going to be moving from…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: to the classroom to the clinical. So that’s exciting. It’s just you got the hurdle, the boards. But how is that studying going for you? So far, so good. So we took like a practice…
Allie: the sports has through our school on Monday. And you have to get a certain score to be able to kind of move forward.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I hit that benchmark. So I was happy with that.
Allie: And… everything’s looking good. Even just having this first week of dedicated, I’ve started to see strides in itself. I was kind of worried being like back in January. They’re like, okay, you should start studying for boards. But also you still have all your classes.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so it’s really hard to balance that. And so I was having a hard time being like, I don’t know how to…
Allie: I’m not sure if I can focus on boards sitting on top of my classes. But even having one week under my belt of just studying for boards, I have been seeing some good progress. That’s great.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And the stuff that you did maybe in the first year, it’ll come back.
Allie: Yeah. So, well that’s exciting. So tell me about your pre-medical journey.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So just see and you can start anywhere you like.
Allie: Okay. So I did my undergrad degree at Boise State. And so here in Boise, I… I was a health science major and then I did an intermediate Spanish certificate. Oh, nice. Yeah. And then so while I was at Boise State, like kind of got involved with… the pre-med club and different opportunities. And then during my second year of undergrad was kind of when COVID hit.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So we had to backtrack. I moved…
Allie: back home to Montana where my parents lived and kind of got exposed into health care during COVID. I was volunteering in the emergency department up there during COVID. I just kind of helped. I was just telling them like sort materials and like they were using reusable masks and stuff.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I would help like take those down to the laundry area.
Allie: to get washed and then sort through those for patients to have and do all that kind of fun stuff during COVID. And then when school started back up after COVID, I applied for a job in the emergency department at St. Als. So I was a full-time student at Boise State, but also working as a scribe in the emergency department, which was really great experience. I was like, this is going to be way too chaotic, but I want to get some experience.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I also didn’t think I was going to like that they didn’t have that longitudinal relationship with
Allie: patient care. But I really came to fall in love with emergency medicine.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then from there, kind of further fat my niche.
Allie: Now I’m describing an ER and I think it was the best experience because you get exposed to everything. And so it’s like… It’s like, go go go and then the ship goes by really fast. So that’s exciting.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So tell me when you were at Boise State, before then…
Allie: Did you always know that you were going to be a doctor? Because you said you were in pre-med.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So did something happen where you’re like, this is where I want to be at? Was this in high school when you decided?
Allie: Or at what point? Yeah, I feel like I kind of always had that feeling that I wanted to be a doctor, even from like young age, and then started exploring that pretty early on in high school. I did like a health careers interest course where we were able to get like our CNA and do stuff like that. So starting in high school, I kind of started to have those experiences.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I knew I was interested in it, but I guess just not really what avenue. So then my experience is
Allie: since then have further solidified. Nice. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then so you get Boise State for undergrad, kind of pre-med, and then did you go right to
Allie: medical school? Did you take a break? How did that kind of you all? Yeah, so I took a couple… gap beers. I honestly had a hard time with MCAT. So when I was working in the emergency room at St. else, it was like I said, I was a full-time student then working as a scrub on top of that. So like for me a lot of the times that looked like mainly doing night shifts and there would be like I went to class all day, worked a night shift, would get off at 6am and then would have like an 8am class.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it was like I like really burnt myself out during undergrad a little bit, which…
Allie: don’t necessarily recommend, but it was part of my path. And then I was signed up to take the MCAT at the end of my senior year.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I was still working full-time and like having school stuff and so… Were you studying like MCAT
Allie: on your own or did you do a course or something? I did the Pearson course. But yeah, so still full-time student still working and then trying to do the Pearson course on top of that and was really just burning myself out. And so…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: came to a point where I was like, okay my MCAT is like in a month and I don’t feel ready. So what do I do?
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I ended up putting my job…
Allie: in the EDC. So I was like okay I only have a month and I just kind of need to grind it out for the next month
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: and see how it goes even though I don’t feel ready for this. So I feel like I did kind of rush that process, which is something I may regret. But at the end of the day,
Allie: like it all worked out. Like I feel like you can either push it off… or I mean I took it and then like after I was disappointed in my score I decided to retake it and I feel like there’s like a lot of resilience in that and moving forward.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I feel like a lot of people like retake the MCAT. So you kind of don’t know what to expect or maybe
Allie: didn’t study quite that much or just weren’t ready for it. But I feel like it’s common or at least. I took it as well. So yeah. So re-took the MCAT and then that kind of delayed my timeline of like taking a… gap here. And so I moved to Scottsdale, Arizona and I applied for kind of jobs all over. I applied like in a neurology clinic. In an orthopedic clinic, in a podiatry clinic, like just kind of whatever. And I ended up landing an orthopedic clinic. And so… I was working there as a medical assistant. And so I got really great experience here because it was a super small clinic. There was one physician, one PA.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then me. And we just kind of ran everything, the three of us. So yeah, I was like getting really
Allie: hands-on experience and sweating and I was getting… toward all injections. And yeah, so that was really cool to have like more of that hands-on experience.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then I realized the shift from like, okay, like I…
Allie: I love the chaos of the emergency department. And I love the hands-on procedures and the variability. But like I also could get that in orthopedics and still backtrack… the fact that like I had said before, I was more interested in having more longitudinal patient care. So it kind of gave me the best of both worlds. Yeah, that’s a great experience. Yeah, I took two… So I ended up getting accepted medical school after my first gap year. Okay. And then I requested to defer for a year because… I wanted to continue to gain experience before starting. Oh, nice. And so what does that deferment look like? Like, can you only do it for a year or how does that work? Yeah, I think for me… I just like us, the school, I was like, hey, like, I really want to come here, but I’m interested in maybe taking an extra year for their gain experience. And…
Allie: build connections like my job. And they were like, okay, we’ll save your slot for the following year. Okay, so that’s kind of nice. I mean, that’s nice for our audience to know that those are options. Yeah, definitely. If you have something really good going on, then you can defer your spot, which is really nice. Because when I got accepted, I had only been like a couple months into the job. I knew if I ever wanted to go back there, like, yeah, build those relationships that I really wanted to learn more from that experience before leaving it. So…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Absolutely. And the surgeon that you worked with, were they DoMD? How did you kind of get around to go into a BIO school?
Allie: Yeah, so Dr. Brown is her name.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And she’s an MD. She went to Ohio State just like, yeah, yeah.
Allie: But for me, I think… My exposure was kind of TO school because I was born and raised in Montana. There’s not really any… Well, when I was being raised, there weren’t any medical… Schools in the state except for the WAMI program through UW. Same as here in Idaho.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so that really kind of limits your options. But then those schools…
Allie: Are popping up in these areas are the DO schools. So while I was at Boise State, I come to school I currently go to was just kind of getting established. And so I got really familiar with I… Because they would come and talk to like the pre-med club or like have us on campus for different things.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I kind of got to know their students and their program and I knew I really liked the school.
Allie: Yeah. And good. I didn’t see myself fitting in there and like that was really important to me when choosing a school. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I feel like mainly I was kind of like exposure to the school and just probably the…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: I was in. Yeah. Did you apply to other DO schools other than I come or did you do like an early application or anything?
Allie: I didn’t do an early application.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I applied to ICOM… Yeah, because I was super familiar with it. And then I applied to
Allie: ASCOM down in Arizona because I was living in there at the… time. Yeah. And those were kind of the 2DO schools I applied to and then I applied to the WAMI program obviously. The University of Utah and then the University of Arizona. Oh, next.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that’s a good count a little bit everywhere. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.
Allie: Good. Awesome. So tell me I’ve talked to a lot of like first years.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: I’ve been on this podcast and I love talking to my second years because now we can see you guys can actually help the first years, right? So what’s been kind of the biggest shift for you from going first year to…
Allie: second year? Yeah, it’s funny because I feel like it’s taken me like a full two years to finally figure out how I study best. Mm-hmm. Like this block, this last block was my… best block by far. Oh, for you. Yeah. So it’s funny that it takes that long to kind of adjust your like routine and to finding what works. Yeah. First year though, I honestly really struggled not necessarily as much in the academic side of things but more the balance. Yeah. Sure. I had a lot of family stuff happen. Like pretty early on my first semester. Yeah. And that just like really hit me hard and like was difficult to integrate into this new chapter. I was like, yeah, I have a lot of knowledge of medical school. And so from there, like I kind of realized what I needed to prioritize.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And for me, like that did kind of look like spending…
Allie: more time on my relationships or like with family because that’s what is important to me. Sure. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it was worth it to maybe like not study as much.
Allie: Yeah. Yeah. Get the perfect grade. And so I feel like you realize like kind of what you are willing to and not willing to compromise in a sense. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then you find your mallets from there. And like I said, it’s hard because it is like kind of a trial and error and you work through it and you figure out what works best.
Allie: It takes time. Yeah. Absolutely. I remember last year when we were first years asking the second years like how they were like doing better second year in comparison to first year.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And a lot of them were like honestly we study less and like our grades are better. So yeah, he thinks it’s like steady, steady, steady. Yeah.
Allie: It’s super important to find your balance and what’s… It’s really important. Totally. Like I think yeah, you just have to find what works best for you. And for me, like I’ve realized I’m not really like an auditory learner. Listening to the lecture, I’m not getting a ton out of that. And like I’m definitely way more hands on or like an active learner. So like I do better when I’m like doing practice. Questions or like doing like flashcards like ok. Yeah. Just spending my time doing those is kind of what I’ve found works best.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And if I prioritize those like and don’t listen to the lecture, it actually ends up saving me a lot of time also. That’s like super important. Like I’m like the same. I was the same.
Allie: Like lectures, I would be like, what did they just say? Yeah, it’s like in one ear out the other. And so I’m just, I was like hands on just kind of how to do stuff on my own. To a little bit. But yeah, that’s interesting. But it’s interesting that it does take you. I think it took me up until like mid second year to realize that. Yeah. That’s not how I did it in undergrad. And I don’t know if you did if you switched to how you studied in undergrad versus medical school. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So. Super important is to know how you learn. If you can figure out that, then yeah, then you can be like in medical school, you don’t have to study as much because now you can be efficiently. Totally. Yeah. Which is really, really. Yeah, I feel like I’ve. First it was kind of like I felt like I had to do everything. Like I felt like I had to watch lectures. I had to do all the practice questions. And it was just such a time consuming. And then like.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I’m still not even nearly as beneficial as just like focusing on the couple of things that worked with us. Yeah. Nice. Good. Good deal. So I do want to talk about like confidence.
Allie: Right. Because I think a lot of this stuff is when you go in medical school, you’re like, you don’t know anything. And you that you get basically hit with the train with with the person out of me and everything. So tell me.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: How your confidence maybe has evolved in this, even from undergrad through maybe your second year. Yeah. I would say confidence is still kind of something I struggle with a little bit, like especially big.
Allie: I’m just like a female and wanting to pursue like more of a male dominated specialty. Yeah. But despite like they’re being like some sort of imposter syndrome. Like I just continue to move forward and things seem to work out. So yeah. Yeah. I think in terms of confidence. Like you go through undergrad and you’re like, okay, I’m pursuing this stream. But I don’t even know if I’ll even get into medical school. Right. And then. You pass that first barrier and you’re like, okay, I’m in. But like what now do I deserve to be here? And so. Yeah. I think. Sorry. I’m not sure where I. Yeah. I probably like it’s like for me, it definitely evolved, but like every year is different. So. Yeah. For you, you’re like, okay, I got the tickets. You’re going to take your boards and now you’re like, I have no idea what to what clinicals is going to be like. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then there’s like another whole like, okay, when I.
Allie: I’m not going to be confident talking for patients and attendings. And so I think that involves and I think even with me getting in practice, like I’m super comfortable now, but there’s all these. As you go residency and then fellowship and then in practice. It’s like, it does. It’s interesting being brought up in posture syndrome. So I think that’s a big deal. It’s like, I’ve long hair, they hit my smart enough, you know, that kind of stuff. And the answer is yes, you are, you know, because everybody brings. Something different to, you know, their patients or whatnot. And so, but just like you said, you just kind of keep pushing through. Yeah. No, that’s like how it feels because it’s still there. It’s still lingers, but you move forward. And I think each time you move forward, you do gain a little bit of confidence. Yeah. So like last year is definitely more like, Oh, like, I’m not sure.
Allie: I can do this in this time. It’s like, okay, those thoughts are still in my head, but like, I do know I can do this and I just have to push them aside. So there you go. There you go.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So let’s you talk a little bit about going into a male dominated specialty. So talk to me about your specialty choice. Okay. Yeah. I’m really interested in orthopedic surgery. So I grew.
Allie: I grew up in Montana, kind of playing lots of sports and doing recreational activities outside. And I mean, just like the entire outdoor aspect of like living.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then moving the Boise is still kind of like really pursue those interests of like skiing and being really active. And like I said, I really like hands.
Allie: On learning. I love procedures. But I like the longitudinal patient care. And so I feel like or like pedic’s really like offers me that. Yeah. And something else I really love about the integration of orthopedics is kind of the mental health aspect of it. I really think it’s impact.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I think that’s really helpful when you can give somebody back some sort of function that impacts their quality of life. Yeah. Like not even for an athlete who’s like missing out on like their scene.
Allie: Or season, but like also for like an older individual who like is losing function and can no longer wash their hair. Like, so it’s like those aspects of like the mental. Health integration with the body function like is something that really interests me. Yeah. And then people say like you kind of like meet your people and you find.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it’s just like all the people I’ve met and the specialty like make me feel like it belong. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s really, really important. I think when I knew I was going to go in the orthopedics. And I was just like going to the ER and then going to the OR. And then seeing everything I was like these are my these are my folks. Yeah. I want to do like it was like a no brainer. And after that. And yeah. And I think this and I.
Allie: It might be a little bad. I mean, I was athlete too. So it might be a little bit of that as well. But I think just kind of teamwork stuff, the hands on stuff, you know, the actual like the pathology.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then that I mean everything to me seemed it was very just interesting. Yeah. That’s why. But so they talk a lot about like, oh, like when you have your aha moment. And you have an aha moment like when you were in the operating room, like I want to do that one. Oh, yeah. Well, I just remember it was just a poly trauma. You know, this is like 2 AM and there was.
Allie: Like there was like three surgeons working on one patient was a motorcycle, you know, accident, you know, someone was at both upper trampines. One was doing a tibial. Yeah. It’s just like a beautiful chaotic scene. And I was like, this is amazing. Yeah. I want to be part of this. Yeah. It’s just crazy because people were like me. That’s pretty crazy. Burmese. It was the first time I watched an OCA be done. Yeah. Yeah. So I was watching an OCA and she was. doing a snowman technique. Yeah. And it was like, I just remember like going over to the graft and like being like, having to figure out the dimensions of
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: like, Oh, where does this part of the femur line up to their femur? And how are we going to like calculate the angle?
Allie: Yeah. Making sure it like perfectly fits into the grass face. Yeah. Like this is so complex. But so cool. So cool. So cool. Yeah. And I think if you can find something that is like you every day, you can be like, this is so cool. Then that to me, that’s especially you need to go into because that’s what keeps the passion that keep. the burnout really low. So if you could definitely find that and I’m happy. Find that. Some people are so, you know, at the end of second year, they’re still trying to figure out where they got like five options. You know, yeah, I figure out what they want to do. So that’s great. I’m glad I’m glad you found that and I’m happy it’s worth it because you’re going to be amazing. So I wanted to pick your brain a little bit.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So as a female medical student, have you faced any unique challenges or expectations? Yeah. So this is something actually that happened pretty recently. So I think
Allie: like us female physicians or providers, we kind of have to find that balance of like, oh, like being a sort of but not pushing too far because like in comparison to our male counterparts, like there are different expectations. Yeah. So our school does do things called Oscars. Yep. And so we had an Oscar and explain the Oscar. So the Oscar.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So the thing is like we have these ochres who come in and they act out standardized patients. So they come in and they’re given like a scenario that they.
Allie: Have practiced. And so our recent one was about like kind of delivering bad news to the patient and the patient was supposed to be being diagnosed with diabetes.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So we’re like having a difficult conversation about how they were going to have this like lifelong medical like. So we’re going to have to be able to get a better condition that they’re going to have to manage and deal with. And that’s going to affect a lot of things and increases their risk for other co-morbidities. Yeah. Anyways. So
Allie: like I was having my conversation with my patient. Yeah. And I thought it went early well. Like I, but then we sit in there and we get feedback from the patient. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And she was telling me that she felt like I was too direct with her and judgmental and like stuff because like I just wanted her to understand like the risk. So.
Allie: Having diabetes. Like I didn’t care that she wasn’t necessarily being compliant, but I wanted her to know like what could happen. Yep. If she continued to not follow that thing. So. It’s really interesting anyways, because like I was giving feedback that like I was too hard on the patient and too direct and had all these expectations for. And then we went into a debrief.
Allie: Like they weren’t direct enough. That’s interesting. So like I do feel like it has like there’s obviously this line that we have to juggle like being a female in comparison. Yeah. And then I’m like, I’m like, I’m not going to be doing normal. Cause like even if I delivered the news the same way as my male counterparts, it’s going to be interpreted it. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it’s definitely been, I’ve definitely had my moments where it’s been hard or it’s like somebody looks at the male in my male counterpart over me just. Because I’m female. I remember there was in my residency, there was a young lady who was, I was a third year. She was a first year and we were.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And she was this tiny little Asian girl and she’s just one of my best friends now. But you know, they were like, Oh, you’re not strong enough. You know this. And she was just, it was awesome. Cause she was just tough.
Allie: Strong. You know, she figured out how to do the retraction without any help. But people would ask her like, Hey, do you need help? She’s like, Absolutely not. Yeah. So I think there is this. There’s a lot of things. I think, you know, even now in the role that I am and teaching medical students and whatnot. And I think we had talked about this is that I feel like males are more, they’ll come up.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I feel like they’re more direct and they’ll ask me questions and whatnot, whereas the females who are just as smart, right? They don’t do that as much. You know, and I just, I, I.
Allie: I see that a lot. And I think it’s just the way that we are. But, but yeah, they’re, I definitely think everybody’s going to have their unique challenges with it. I think now. More and more. We’re trying to diversify, right? With a pedic sitting on there’s, there’s a lot more females involved. Yeah, there were some really cool females.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I think we were in residency and we would go to the cat. And we would never have a line at the bathroom. The guys would have a line at the bathroom. And so, and now it’s switched. So it’s, that’s kind of funny. So, no, that is funny. So I guess on the same trend. So have you experienced any subtle or overt gender bias in your training at all?
Allie: I don’t know about that necessarily. Yeah. I guess. Yeah, I don’t know about that necessarily. Like we were talking about like maybe opportunity wise and like males just. Being more assertive. And I feel like that’s just difficult. Cause like you said, like females can be just as competitive, but like not seek out the operation.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So we kind of need somebody to maybe help us along in that regard a little bit more. But that comes with like the mentorship. And I really.
Allie: Do gravitate towards female mentors for that reason. Yeah, there are some great male mentors out there also. But I just don’t think they quite understand what a female medical student. I agree. Yeah. Cause they want to mentor you. They’re willing to mentor you. But they just don’t fully understand that. They’re different challenges that need to be addressed. So yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I think that’s really important. I had a lot. It’s interesting to see that I had a. A lot of my mentors are males and there was one that I went through and I can’t remember if it was residency or fellowship. I really wanted to get to. I know this female orthopedic surgeon, but she was very like off putting and very like harder on me than she was the males, which I thought was interesting.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then fast forward to now when we kind of met a different meeting, she was like, yeah, I just kind of wanted to make it tougher, you know, at that time. You’re like.
Allie: Yeah. What’s going on? You know, and I get it now. I tried to do the opposite. I tried to just be like, Hey, just talking about whatever. I just don’t like playing those games, but you know, I just I would too gravitate towards female mentors. I think yeah, they just kind of know. I think a big thing with. I mean, if you’re not a surgeon, I don’t know if what it is now is, Oh, you can’t be a surgeon. I mean, if you got kids, you definitely can’t be a surgeon. Like the lifestyle doesn’t allow it, you know.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I don’t know what is the kind of thought now. I would say there’s still that thought, like, especially from the school, like our school very much, like if you’re a female. And you tell them you’re interested in that. Yeah. The first thing they ask us is, okay, what about your family one? Yeah, we’re like our male counterparts definitely don’t get those same questions.
Allie: But I’ve been really fortunate to have such great female mentors who have done both. And like, I do believe that like if you’re. Doing something you’re super passionate about and that translates. Yeah, like over to like one day when your kids see that. Yeah, like that’s equally as important.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I’d be like, Oh, my mom does something that she like really cares about and like makes a big difference. Yeah, no, absolutely. So yeah, I think and I’ve had friends who have had.
Allie: Kids in residency and kids in medical school as well. And I think I definitely think it’s a challenge. And it definitely gets very hard. I have three kids and I ended up doing him kind of. Like in between medical school and residency and then when I got into training. And so it can you can do it, right? Yeah, for sure. Like. People think like you go through this training for 14, 15 years or whatnot and life happens and you kind of just you figure it out. I think there’s a lot more programs now. That are open to that and give you the maternity leave that you need as well. So I would say, don’t be afraid. Like, have a family. Have your family. You know, kind of thing. I mean, like, I think in anything, there’s like, give and take your compromises. So it’s like, it to have a family and to do with. But you like really want to do like, obviously, there’s going to be some compromises, but there’d be compromises the other way. If you sacrificed your career to just like have kids and then.
Allie: Were doing something you were nearly as passionate about. Yeah. Yeah. Like that would show also. Yeah. I’m really interested in phrasing my eggs, actually. Yeah. So that’s a conversation. I’m. Interesting. Bring up to programs as I get to that point. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I’ve had a lot of friends and done that as well. I think that that’s a very viable option to do that. So, you know, that’s fantastic. So tell me like, for your second year, what’s like a triple day for you? So well, you’re kind of done now. But what was. Yeah. So.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So second year, typical day is some days. So the way we do it at our school is everything’s kind of hybrid learning. So all of our classes are on campus. And you can also choose to just watch them virtually or watch them after the fact. This year I decided that to save time.
Allie: I was just going to watch them at home. So I’d watch them on two times speed, but I would wake up in the morning, wait for the first lecture to go and then I’d watch out on two.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so I’d watch all the lectures in the morning and then in the afternoon. We sometimes have to be on campus for different labs or different things.
Allie: But then I’d get home.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I’d just do Anki for the stuff from that day. So I really like doing Anki for the material. And that’s the flashcards.
Allie: We need to have space repetition and so they call it. So yeah, the space repetition really works great for me. It doesn’t work well for everybody. But like I said, that’s really how I learned best. And so I can just look at the flashcard and then kind of understand what’s going on. From there, then if I needed like supplemental learning, we have access to like all these resources.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so I’m just going to go to the online like video wise. So there’s like a platform called osmosis that I like to use. And so it’s funny because we have like our long lectures, right?
Allie: You can watch an osmosis video that’s like 10 minutes and it covers like every. That’s what you do. Okay. But yeah, so and then like they give you tips and tricks like high yield for like word studying or they add mnemonics into their videos.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so it I really like learning that way. And so if you watch that video and it’s like again, like a 15 minute lecture within 10 minutes.
Allie: Yeah. And then they have practice questions at the end so you can solidify your learning. Yes. So for me. I would say like a typical day is kind of like watching lecture in the morning afternoon kind of going to campus some days to do different like. We would do like a lot of our clinical medicine stuff in the afternoon where we would learn like different procedure techniques or that’s great stuff like that.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And yeah, just kind of setting at night and doing flashcards or watching some videos. Okay. Nice. It sounds like you got a and it’s nice to hear that right?
Allie: Cause it’s not just.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: When people come in from undergrad or from wherever it’s not just like reading a book and that’s what you do.
Allie: Yeah. Yeah. I could not. Things that you ways you can learn. Yeah. Definitely. That fits you and there’s so many different resources, especially now. I think there’s a lot more online stuff that you guys can really look.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then I’d say like supplemental resources and I’d look up
Allie: like a bunch of videos for the topic and then I would put them all in the documents.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So later on I could go back and say like, okay, like this lecture like.
Allie: I want to go over this and there’s like this osmosis video for this or there’s this website that talks about this.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So nice. Yeah. Okay. So this like the osmosis stuff is that like it’s just through your school or do it like it’s an online like anybody can do it.
Allie: It’s online. It’s a paid kind of program. I’m like, I can pay support.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then we also get this platform called draw it to know it. And the idea with draw it to know it is it’s these videos, but you get to draw like kind of what’s happening at the same time. So for like, because there’s like all that evidence of like how like actually writing your notes is better than just typing them or whatever. So I think that’s
Allie: kind of the idea around that platform is you can draw like kind of the different pathways that they’re describing to you. Yeah. That’s really cool. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And definitely evolved.
Allie: I could definitely have. Oh, she says I’m old. So.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So what would you tell them early to stay competitive if they’re like, I want to do surgery.
Allie: I want to do surgery.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What do you think you would say to somebody coming in?
Allie: Yeah. So I had a mentor say to me that if you’re interested in something competitive, you should pursue that because it’s easier to decide later on that you don’t want to do that than it is to decide later on that you actually do you want to do it. That makes sense. Yeah. So. I think like if you even have an inkling that you might be interested in something like you should look into it and see like if there’s opportunities to shadow people in your area. Or how you can get involved or like further explore that field. Yeah. Because again, like if you wait, it might be too late. Like something like or. Orthopedics that is pretty competitive and you have to have all these experiences to show for that. If you decide like in the middle of your third year and like people. Have been doing research and leadership opportunities since first year. Like it’s hard to go back and be competitive for something.
Allie: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So you have to have to have a good time to do that.
Allie: You haven’t really didn’t realize until later on. So yeah, it’s easier to put in the work to pursue something competitive early on and then. Eventually if you do decide you don’t want to do it and then that’s okay. There’s other options. Yeah, rather than.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And what do you say to folks that say like, okay, well, I want to.
Allie: Do this surgical specialty and should I have a backup? Like you think that’s feasible or you like just go for it. Just go for that one that you really like. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it’s funny because they say right like that if you can see yourself doing something other than surgery, you should choose that.
Allie: Yeah. Yep.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so it’s like I feel like we all kind of have these moments where like we’re like trying to convince ourselves that like, okay, maybe like this other thing is interesting.
Allie: Yeah. And then we circle back and we’re like. Yeah. That’s so funny. But yeah. So sorry. What was the question again? Oh, yeah. No, I was just.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Yeah. I don’t worry about it. But tell me about. So tell me about the clinical rotations. Do you know what rotations you’re going to be doing for next year?
Allie: I don’t know yet. Okay. So I was placing Great Falls, Montana. So I’m moving to Montana in July. Oh, my goodness.
Allie: I’m going to be doing a bunch of clinical rotations nights and then they do the whole bingo ball thing where they give you a number. But if you’re from a state. You can choose to go back to that state. And so I was born and raised in Montana. And I really wanted to stay here. But if I couldn’t stay here, then I would rather go home. Yeah. Then end up somewhere random. Yeah. So I was just kind of like instead of testing my luck in this bingo ball lottery system, I’ll just go home. No. Are you going for there for the whole year? Is it for a link a couple months? Yeah. So it’s for the whole year. Oh, wow. But we get like three months off, essentially. Okay. Because we have one month of scholarly activity, as they call it, and it’s like completely virtual where we just kind of do a research project through the school’s library.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then we have a month of vacation, but you have to take all at once. You just get four weeks off all at one time. And then we have our residency prep block. Okay. So yeah. Well, that’s exciting. Yeah. And so you’re kind of doing the clinical rotations are kind of doing like the jet right, like Peds and family medicine. Yeah, we do all the generals. Yeah.
Allie: We don’t do our rotation until our fourth year. Oh, okay. So other than that, like everything kind of generalized or core rotations is starting through.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then we get to do a couple subspecialties. So we get it within third year. Yeah. So third year will have our general surgery rotation. And then you also get
Allie: a lot of surgical subspecialties. So I was able to rank like a bunch of different surgical subspecialties. And so I did like Ortho and then anesthesia. Yeah. Then for internal medicine, we do internal medicine and then you do an internal medicine subspecialty. So I was interested in kind of pursuing PM&R as a backup option. Yeah. So I am going to try to do a rotation that next year. Great. That’s awesome.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What I tell people is for their their sub eyes or the like if you wanted to go in Ortho, like and say I had a bunch of blocks where I could do.
Allie: Or I could do like three or four orthopedic rotations, but I only did like two and then I did other stuff around it. So yeah, like anesthesia is a good one. So anything that’s around orthopedic. PM&R is a really good one. I did PM&R just because you’re going to see that, right? Yeah, which which I always tell folks that want to go in any specialty that do do. But then do something that you’re going to be interacting with or have colleagues that you’re going to be interacting. So you understand the other part of that. Yeah, that’s fine. So I think anesthesia. That would be cool because like obviously like being in the operating room, it’s so vital to understand that on your actual own role. Absolutely. I was going to ask you what.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What are the competitive specialties now? I’m wondering if it’s the same as it was when I went. Yeah, maybe pretty similar. So neurosurgery obviously is kind of always up.
Allie: Dermatology is up there. Plastics or the pedex is normally ranked like third or four PM&Rs really. It’s a great lifestyle. Yeah, so the past couple of years, I think PM&R is kind of skyrocketed. So they’re saying it’s becoming more and more competitive.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So yeah, yeah, I would say yeah, I would say Dermatology was neurosurgery and he was up there too. I don’t know if that’s still up there or not.
Allie: I would say it’s kind of in the middle. Okay, so it’s about the same. Yeah. So, but those are good to know if anybody who wants to go in these specialties. Yeah, so those are competitive specialties.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So this is kind of a you may not know an answer to this, but what do you think are two to three mistakes to avoid if you’re serious about surgery?
Allie: Yeah, this is a hard one. I’m like you got to mention one like starting too late. Yes, that’s a good one. I think another one. Yeah, these are hard ones because like I. For me, you know, people are like, oh, you have time in medical school to kind of figure out what you want to do.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And to me, I don’t think you have time. Yeah. I mean, I think you’ve got to come in.
Allie: You got to be like, I don’t know. This is what I think I want. But like literally year one, I think you got to pick whether you want to do medicine or surgery.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I think you got to in that usually is through burs anatomy.
Allie: Yeah. And so from then, I think you got a certain like narrowing stuff down or maybe the shadowing part early before medical school would help. But I think the. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it sucks because I’m only a four year. Yeah, but you know, and they really do fly by.
Allie: Yeah. I feel pretty crazy to be done with. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I’m like even thinking, so like, I do feel like I’ve done a lot to express interest in orthopedics over the past two years.
Allie: Yeah. But I’m still kind of like, okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I only have one year to solidify my application. Like what can I do within one year that would make me a stronger applicant? Yeah.
Allie: So, yeah. But yeah, I think also like so. Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so, I think if you want to do a little bit of an exercise or a surgery thing, just.
Allie: They say there’s a balance like that.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So you want to do well on your clinical rotations is kind of the main thing.
Allie: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So they say they all also like there’s a fine line of like not overstepping because they actually see the students more who are like more team players are willing to help others. And then like trying to take the opportunities for themselves. Yeah. No, absolutely. So like you want to be eager and you want to express interest in opportunities, but like you all. So don’t want to like shut anybody else out.
Allie: Absolutely. Yeah. There are those and you will see those people in clinical rotations where they’re like always right now. Answer the questions. They’re always like interrupting. You know, cuz they want to shine in that way. But I think that’s a really good point is that that people are looking for you, especially in like. Or though where it is all team stuff. Like yeah, I interact with so many other folks in my day to day stuff. I mean, I probably talked to my physical therapist more than than my. My husband, you know, just because I’m talking about my patients, but I think you have to have that team effort, especially if you’re going to go into surgery because it is not just you. So, but I think that’s a really good thing. So it’s not like just how much you know and it’s you got to lift other people up and you’ve got to respect other people.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so that’s important.
Allie: As well. Yeah, I think something else that comes to mind is really networking. Yeah. Like I do think networking is a huge part of this process. Yep. Absolutely. Because you want people that can advocate for you at the end of the day. So I would say like if you are interested in surgery, like you should try to build that mentorship.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And that’s a big thing that goes along with it. Yeah. And you were just talking about before this that you’ve actually were trying to apply for stuff as medical students. You guys can apply for leading.
Allie: Your ship type positions. Yeah, which I think is super important within your field to be able to do that because then you can go to these academies and you can go to these conferences and then you can meet at the.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then you can go to their people and even as a medical student, I think that’s super important. Yeah, definitely that. So, because I told you I went to Academy this year. Yeah. I want to.
Allie: I got a scholarship through Ruth Jackson. Nice. And so they paid for me to go and so then I got to go to the Ruth Jackson annual meeting on Monday and then spend the rest of the week.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I was like, I’m just a little medical student. I don’t know if they’re going to remember me, but I try to make the most of it. And it’s like just going up to random people and introduce. So who knows? Maybe one day somebody will be like, Oh, yeah, I do recognize you from that conference to.
Allie: Yeah, I was like talking to all these random people. I didn’t even know who they were. And then later I was finding out. They were like, they were like, I don’t know if they were like, they were like, they were like, they were like, they were like, they were like crazy stuff. So yes, I would say don’t be scared. Like most of everybody who are program directors are big. Nice people. I mean, they’re if they’re there to an academy, they’re into education. They want to get back. They want to impact your life. So yeah, just email them. If you don’t want to do or. You know, sometimes I would like after a lecture, they’ll have their email and then I’ll be like, Hey, you know, I’m like, Hey, I saw your lecture and then they’ll respond. So yeah, I think you just kind of kind of get out. There. Yeah, definitely. So I went to the Prairie Initiative also last fall. Nice. And through that, like, met like some of the residents in attendings down at Mero.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so whenever I’m down there, I’ll like email the resident and be like, Hey, can I come in for didactic? Absolutely. And so and that’s like been super beneficial because
Allie: like being in the classroom, like in medical school can be kind of redundant or boring. And so like, I feel like it’s really important to pursue these opportunities. That continue to expand your interest. Yeah. And so like going and experiencing that and like we were talking about earlier, just like having that be like, Oh, like I am really interested in this. And it kind of gives you that spark back. Yeah, like momentarily. Yeah, it’s like, okay, there’s a reason why I’m studying, you know, 12 hours a day. But it’s just like I just randomly email this resident. I just keep bothering her and she responds for some reason, but it works. There you go. There you go. Well, good. Well, so I would do an ask you to what’s been your hardest moment so far and what did it teach you? And it could be medical school, it can be an undergrad. Yeah. So like I was saying, I had a lot of challenges. My
Allie: semester. So it always happened around finals week. So my first finals week, the first semester my sister got into a really bad car crash. Oh, no.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And she was okay, but she was really bad PTSD from it. And I think just at first it was super scary and we weren’t quite sure what
Allie: was going to happen. And so I was dealing with that. And then I had to take my first finals week and was definitely distracted and had days where I didn’t study and just kind of did what I could to get through. Yeah. And then the middle of the second final week of my first year, my boyfriend’s mom ended up in the ICU on a ventilator. She was like an elective surgery and had a bad reaction to anesthesia. So yeah, so that was like second week and then yeah, I just kept feeling like I was getting hit when I was down. And then yeah, third finals week my aunt is like rushing to emergency surgery also. So she’s a week. It was like, they say bad things happen in three Yeah, first semester just really kind of beat me down. And like after that, like I wasn’t even sure if I could continue to explore like a competitive specialty like this because I didn’t do well academically. Yeah, it’s hard. Yeah, it’s really hard. Like, and so I just like had a lot of self
Allie: down and it was like, well. I know I’ve been really interested in this one specialty and if I can’t do that, like, I don’t know if it’s worth it to continue or like I don’t know.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so I think, again, like talking to mentors or like having support through this whole like, yeah, did make me feel like, okay, that’s part of my story. And I can. And then I can continue to move forward and talk about how these things impacted me. Yeah. And like I was saying, so I do feel like just kind of getting hit while you’re down and then you realize what’s
Allie: important. And like in those moments, it was important to me to spend that time like with family or doing different things. So even though it affected my performance. It’s not something that I look back on in progress and like from there, like all I can do is like learn, like, and move forward and have that.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And maybe sometimes it is taking a break, right? And that’s okay. If you need to, or sometimes it is pushing through or sometimes it’s just asking for help, which is really hard for us type a folks to do. Yeah.
Allie: Definitely. But there’s people out there that are willing to help you get through, willing to help you keep focused or whatnot. I mean, it sounds like from all the other.
Allie: Yeah. Yeah. And then I think that was something I could utilize and do. So like, yeah, I wish that like maybe at the time, like I thought that but I. Like you’re saying like us type a people or whatever, like we just kind of do it alone. Yeah. We just keep going. So man. Well, I’m sorry to hear. I’m glad you like made it through. I just think you’re just a rock star and you’re going to make it wonderful. Thank you. I’m going to go over some of them. We talked a little bit about mentorship. And so I think for you, you’ve kind of touched on that. And so tell me how important that’s been for you.
Allie: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So about like doing leadership opportunities or different things like that, like every leadership opportunity I’ve had to apply for has.
Allie: I mean, I’ve had to have a letter of recommendation with it. So yeah, it’s been really important to have somebody who can like speak on my, we have some like, knows like why it would be a good fit. Yeah. Yeah. No. And tell me what, so if like you had somebody who’s maybe either in medical school or maybe like in undergrad, it wants to go. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: I was a person in medical school and they’re like, well, what do I look for in a mentor? What like qualities or characteristics or what would you tell them?
Allie: Yeah. I think that, like. like within the community or within different aspects of medicine. So like normally they’re the people whose like faces are kind of out there more as like being speakers on panels.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So these are great people to reach out to especially like you’re saying like with program directors
Allie: like they go to those meetings for a reason. So like these people that are speaking on panels. Or you see their face like around town like there’s a reason for that and it’s because they like to do that kind of stuff and they like to educate. Yes. So those are great people to reach out to. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: That’s good. And then do you think you have more female mentors now or male even kind of even?
Allie: I’ve like ironically I do feel like I have more female.
Allie: Which is but it’s super funny because it is orthopedics which is so male dominated. Yeah. But I have really found my niche of female mentors that unlike. Like I said like I do appreciate the female mentors are kind of willing to stop more and take the time to actually educate me or explain things. Yeah. And like they’re more. Well coming into like okay come and see this or do this. Like when I went to the operating room with Dr. Brown for the first time like she was like okay scrubbing. I’m going to have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like my first operating room. There you go. That’s how you learn. Get thrown in the five at the end of the day. They were like okay like you can walk. Watch the PA suture and then they let me like just cut the tails of like the suture. Yeah. Would you super important.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I was like okay like those are great experiences. And just be like okay like you’re in here like we know you want to learn. So we’re going to let you do that. Yeah. And comparison to like sometimes when I’ve been in the operating room with male mentors like.
Allie: I know they want to mentor and I know they want to teach but they’ll just be like okay stand in the corner and like let me know if you need something. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So like I do think that’s like kind of the difference. Yeah. Yeah. Well that’s good. I it’s so funny how it swab like I would say I have more male mentors in the field.
Allie: But I think it’s just because there’s been such a shift now that there’s just a lot more females in this field. Yeah. And I think it’s absolutely wonderful.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And but I remember like a lot of the like even the mentors.
Allie: But I had in medical school and residency like I still talk to them. And so I tell people mentors are like for life. Yeah. Like I’ll still like call.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And be like hey can you look at this case for me. And so but those are the ones that are like like even if they’re so busy or they have however many titles behind their name or what not. And they’ll stop and text you or call you real fast. Yeah. Those are to me like true mentors. Right. Yeah. Definitely. They want to see you succeed. They want to make sure that you’re doing good.
Allie: You’re doing what you want to do. You know that kind of stuff. But I think it’s super important to have the mentor. Seems like you got a good good good group with you. Yeah. Sure. I appreciate all you guys do. Yeah. No, I think it’s fun. It’s fun. And it’s fun to see you guys kind of go off to whatever you know residency or whatnot. You’re just like. Oh my god. That’s my band. They’re just doing so good. So well just kind of rounding out anything that you would like. This has been really, really good. Add to like. Your experience or just like like just any advice that you would add for somebody who’s maybe looking at surgery or just maybe looking in medical school. Or anything like that that you would give them. Yeah. I think that from where I’m at like at a do school at a smaller school.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And like again like not having perfect academic standing or like having challenges that have faced the way something that’s been really important to me is to like seek out.
Allie: Outside opportunities. Okay. And so like I’ve said like I talked about my involvement with Jackson a little bit in the period initiative. I’m part of. This organization called frame orthopedics which stands for research education and mentoring in North. Oh, nice. And so it’s like I applied for it last fall and was selected and.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And students from all across the country and we collaborate together on research projects and that’s cool. So yeah. So I’ve had like some amazing opportunities. And I’ve had that and like I’ve gotten to know some really cool people who are doing amazing things and connect connect me with great mentors also. So I think just seeking outside operation.
Allie: opportunities is really important.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then in terms of like time management during med school and volunteering, it’s like we all
Allie: have so many things we have to do. But I believe when it comes down to time, like you should do the things that you’re most passionate about. For example, I like every. Everybody needs to volunteer. Everybody needs to do research. I’m not somebody that’s just going to go volunteer to volunteer. Right. Like I’m going to find something that I’m really passionate about and spend my time.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then I’m going to do a little bit of a little bit of a time volunteering with that. So then like it’s something I enjoy doing and it makes it worth it.
Allie: But like I’m still knocking off that check mark at the same time. Sure. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So like I.
Allie: I’m just volunteering much more. Fun. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And manageable. So I believe that in terms of like checking out boxes instead of just like doing things to do things
Allie: because. You have to check up a box. You should do things that you’re actually really passionate about and like also meet those marks. Yeah. That’s so good.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So good.
Allie: Well, thank you so much. Bye.
