Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Hello, everyone, and welcome back. This is Dr. Lawyer at the Med Mentor podcast, and we are on episode 8, and we had a
Dan: little bit of hiatus, and which is great. We still got a good lineup of folks coming through, so I hope you guys are enjoying all these wonderful students who are volunteering. I’m sharing their time to be able to answer my questions, but hopefully help you out and guide you and whatnot. But I have an awesome Dan today. My name is Dan. Dan, how are you doing? I’m doing pretty good. How are you doing? I’m doing great. So it’s been a long Friday. I’m in the OR, but it’s been fun. It’s what I love doing, so.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: We’re doing good. So we always start out with the first question super easy. So what year are you in medical school? So I am a first-year student at ICOM.
Dan: Perfect. And tell me how that is. It’s going. It’s going well. We’re doing cardio right now, and it’s been really interesting. I’ve definitely thought… I knew something, but then it’s really cool to kind of see what I know and kind of build upon what we’re talking about. It’s been fun. It’s been really hard. It’s been really fun. I know. Everybody says that this time. It’s just really hard. Especially first year because you don’t really know what to expect. Yeah, cardio seems like. Cardi I thought was a good one. It sounds like you guys just came off your neuro block and everybody was like, woof. Neuro is brutal. It was brutal.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then what block do you go next?
Dan: Respiratory. Respiratory. Which would make sense. Well, good. You have the very interesting… I’m a little bit of a story and just for our listeners, I usually reach out to my Dans and I try to have them give me a little blurb of their pre-medical journey because everybody’s… It’s different. I love that everybody’s been super different. But yours is packed. It’s interesting. It’s like a movie. It’s kind of cool.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So hopefully we can kind of get through everything and get your take on stuff and you just go ahead and ramble if you need to.
Dan: But I do want to start out because you have an interesting… Kind of journey in aviation before you started going into the medicine track.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So just tell me a little bit about that, how that started, kind of your background in that.
Dan: Yeah. I would say medicine and aviation were always kind of interests of mine. If you asked me. I wanted to be a doctor. I knew I wanted to… I wanted to be a doctor. Then if you asked me when I was 11, oh, I wanted to be a pilot. Oh, I wanted to do various different things.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And with aviation, it kind of came to my mind.
Dan: Like, man, I want to try this out. You know, not 11 years old, you can have a lot of dreams, but it’s not super practical. Okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So around 11, I’m like, man, how am I going to do this? I talked to my mom. I was like, hey, can you guys help me pursue this?
Dan: She’s like, well, you’re only 11, so you’ve got a lot of time to think about this.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And she’s like, well, why didn’t you start saving money? She’s like, because your dad and I can’t help you with this.
Dan: Mm.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And because it is…
Dan: I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, yeah, I’m like, I’m just like, I’m like, I’m just like, I’m running a lot of dreams.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: I’m like, I’m like, what’s the core? Like, what’s the core?
Dan: a family who is a pilot or anything like that, or this is just something that was just kind of burning. It’s totally organic. I did know some pilots though. I grew my church congregation, but family-wise no. Okay. Alright. So something totally new. I love that.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So just starting out, just want to be a pilot. So started getting money. Were you saving for like school or what was the saving for at that time?
Dan: Yeah. So I was just kind of saving money for schooling at the time. It was my goal was to save about $10,000 before I would start. It’s a lot of loans. Oh, it was many loans. And… Lots of sunscreens and sunburns and getting to meet a lot of my neighbors and a lot of people who really kind of believed in what I was doing. I thought it was… They were excited for me, which was cool. Nice.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so were you… And I should have gone back. Are you local from Idaho, from different states? So I’m…
Dan: Pennsylvania. Okay. Alright. Perfect. One of the oldest in Pennsylvania. Nice.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so, okay. So you’re in Pennsylvania. And so tell me like, did you start going to school?
Dan: At some point maybe. I don’t know. I didn’t… You know, it was kind of my ignorance. I don’t know. I was a teenager.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: How does that work?
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So with Fight School, I heard… And I approached my mom and I was like, hey, if you’re…
Dan: I’m like, okay. I’m like, okay. I’m like, okay. I’m like, okay. I guess we’re getting started with this.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I was 15 at the time.
Dan: Okay. Perfect.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so were you just all on like…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so I can’t become a doctor now, but I can become a pilot. And I can explore that and kind of either rule this in or rule it out as a possible career. And it was just…
Dan: You know, appreciate this as a career create, if not, you know, it could still be a hobby or part of my life. Okay. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so tell me, do you remember that first lesson?
Dan: I do. Yeah. I do. I was so nervous. I remember they gave me maybe a five, ten minute spiel about, okay, this is how an airplane works. This is the end.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I thought I was just going to go up and they were going to fly it for me. And he said, all right, you ready to fly? And I’m like, I didn’t know I was at homework.
Dan: I didn’t know if I was supposed to prepare what I was supposed to do. He’s like, well, no, I’m going to keep my hands in the controls, which is so every…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So you can fly it together.
Dan: Nice. I just remember trying to go down the taxiway. You steer with your… You… Okay. Okay. And I was all over the place. I think we got into the grass a little bit. He’s like, let me take over. Yeah. I see where we’re at. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Because I hadn’t even driven. A car by that point. Oh, that’s true. Yeah. That’s crazy. Well, that’s fun. And so where you guys like
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: like what elevation were you guys at or how long was it?
Dan: It was like an hour he said maybe. I think it ended up being I don’t know 45 minutes to an hour. We took off from the airport. He’s like, where do you want to see? I was like, whoa, like let me fly over my school. I want to see what that looks like. And that’s cool. This is kind of a Ford image myself a little bit before drones were like kind of a the things. I’ve never seen it from above. Yeah. Fly over my house and my friend’s house and kind of
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: you know, it’s turned back to the airport. So it wasn’t too long. Perfect. Perfect. So how would you compare?
Dan: Like that because you were probably pretty nervous. So how would you compare that with like entering medical school, right? That like nervousness? Like it was it like a excitement. But oh my gosh, I don’t know what to expect. Do you think that similar was totally different for you? Definitely. I know it was very same. Very the same. thing and a little bit different. Yeah. I still remember sitting, you know, in my first day of orientation, my heart was kind of pounding the same way. You know, when I started flying. If it’s like, Oh my gosh, I said, I’m going to do this. Now I’ve got to show up and I’ve got to do this. So that kind of nervous energies as well as the prep. I think I was a little bit more prepared to start medical school. Sure. But still there’s that
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: nervous energy that it kind of it’s like, okay, how can I turn this in?
Dan: Yeah. Well, awesome. And so tell me how did the flight school go? Like, did you do a couple more
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: sessions? Did it end abruptly? How did it?
Dan: Yeah. So I started at 15 and it was it was kind of a slow pace. A lot of people do it. They’ll kind of crank it out in six months or so. For me, just because I was still working and still trying to save money for college, my mission, for flight school, there’s a lot of things I had to pay for. So I was, you know, slowly working myself. A lesson every other week. Okay. Yeah. Just to kind of keep the fire going, but still something that I could afford because it was a couple hundred dollars every time. Yeah. And. Which, which really kind of taught me to, you know, pace myself, not rush. And I was doing kind of that pace until I was about 16 years. Mm hmm. So after you do a certain number of hours to let you fly on your own, that’s kind of like your, your white coat. I guess you can see it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Spread new wings a little bit. And it was, it was a windy day. Yeah. Are you in, in the cockpit by
Dan: yourself then? So solo. So. Yes. That was the goal. But before that, we were kind of doing some warm ups. I had to do a simulated engine failure and all these things. Okay. And. The winds had totally changed on us and to kind of shorten the story a little bit, we ended up crashing. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so how big are the planes? So this was, oh my goodness, it was a Piper warrior. So a four
Dan: seater, four seater airplane. Okay. And there’s like a one engine. Just single engine. Okay. Gotcha. The super basic airplane. My goodness. And yeah, we ended up. That’s scary. The end of the runway. And I’m, I want to. Walked away. I was like, I am never doing this again. Understandably so, I hope. But. Oh my goodness. That’s crazy. My mom watched the whole thing from a golf. Are you serious? Yeah. She was, she was there. I had some family there that was ready to watch me for my big day. Oh, no. Yeah. So that was a little scary. That is very scary. And it took me a long time to be comfortable talking about it for a long time. I was just, you know, I, but now I can look back and, you know, look back and. See, like, okay, what did I learn? I can laugh a little bit about it. Like that is crazy. Crazy. Crazy. So no injuries or anything or. Just my ego. Yeah. Just my ego mainly.
Dan: We walked away pretty much unscathed. Oh my God. Guys had some angels around you. Oh, for sure. Wow. Wait. And so was it like an engine failure? Was it just because. It was windy. Just everything was off. Guilty a little bit. Yeah. So the winds. You try to line up the runway based on the weather. The winds coming towards you’re coming behind you. You want to you want to be going into the wind when you land. And that was the case where we had a much stronger wind and we had turned the engine almost off. We had it all the way back because we were stimulated. That the engine was completely out. Okay. And so the wind started pushing us back and slowing us down a little bit quicker. Yeah. So we ended up crashing into the embankment before the runway. Oh my.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And ended up hopping, skipping up broke off our wheel, the front wheel and the propeller and kind
Dan: of landed on the nose at the end of the runway. Oh my goodness. So crazy. We walked away kind of a miracle. That is a miracle. Oh my goodness. That is crazy. I mean, at least you tried it. Right. I mean, at least that’s what was your dream.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And at least you tried it. Yes. So no regrets. No regrets. And I actually did go on. I am a pilot.
Dan: No, I ended up getting my life. Or I guess you call that certificate. Yeah. But just some people, some physicians, you know, once I kind of have pivoted towards, I want to go into medicine. Yeah. A lot of them, you know, that I met through the airport that I was acquainted with, who would take me up and go flying. And they’re like, you need to get back into this. You need to finish. And I’m like, well, I’m thinking medicine at this point. Sure. And it’s 17, 18 years old. I’m about to graduate high school and I need to finish this. Yeah. Oh, as far as the flight stuff.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Interesting. Okay. So, so you got your license and then did you pivot into medicine or what was that? How was that? So after
Dan: I got back into thinking about medicine again, right? Yeah, it was kind of like, I need to finish this chapter. I was so close. Yeah. So I kind of finished that chapter. I ended up going my mission. Yeah. Okay. At that time, because you’re like 18. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Yeah. Okay. I think I was 19 actually when I went. Okay. Okay. Okay. Where’d you go in your mission? So I served my mission in Rome, Italy. Nice. Which was that’s a good pitch. Yeah. The cool
Dan: thing is we don’t even get to pick. I know. Well, I know quite a few people who go in their mission and one of them, and this isn’t like it’s a bad place or anything. But one of the guys is like, yeah, I’m going to Spokane, Washington. I was like. Dang it. Like other people going to Italy or where I go, you know, someplace like very cool. Yeah. Oh man. So that was I was a little bit excited. I was so nervous though because I was like, man, I knew wherever I went, I didn’t want to learn a language. I want to go to Australia, I’ll go to the US, I’ll do whatever. But I did terrible in Spanish. I’m like, there is no way that they expect me to be able to to learn this language because they make you. They give you six weeks. Yeah. Oh, to learn everything. I mean, yes. Best you can. Right. conversational probably stuff. And then they send you off.
Dan: That’s like, all right. I didn’t know. Interesting. Oh, that’s pretty. It’s pretty intense. So already, even before you mission.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So let’s just go back. So all this stuff, I think has been preparing you for. So like, let’s talk about mindset stuff. I think that as a teenager and young teenager,
Dan: trying to get your trying to get my. You know, to save up for this dream, this other dream that’s not medicine,
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: how has this like helped you out in medicine or in medical school kind of what you’re feeling?
Dan: Because you’re like, now you’re like. Well, medical school is hard right now. So but you most people would say like what you did was pretty hard. Yeah. They’re very they’re.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So many similarities. Looking back, it’s like, wow, it gave me something to save for and something to give me
Dan: kind of that. That end goal. This is what I’m working for. This is what I’m working towards.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And really what it taught me is to gather people who all. So believe in your vision. Oh, that’s really good. Yeah. I found people that knew that I wanted to do this and kind of knew how
Dan: expensive or these things were that. That really kind of no pun intended book kind of took me under their wing, so to speak, and said, hey, like, I believe in you.
Dan: That was huge. So I started to put in the work. I still had to, you know, do a lot, but I think it gave me the confidence to reach out to people who also. Had big goals, you know, who had these really far off goals that that they would also believe in mind because somebody believed in them. Yeah. No, I think that’s fantastic. I think that’s really. It’s really helpful to when you have even high schoolers or people who are in college who maybe not want to be a doctor, want to go to medical school. Maybe kind of not on the path, right? It’s a little bit curvilinear for them. And they maybe they’re not around the right people too, who are supporting that dream for them. And so I think that’s super important. To have absolutely got some of the best best advice and best conversations I had were with physicians in their airplanes going to. Meetings or things and them just sharing their experience with me. So I got a little glimpse of it even before I was old enough to be shadowing and.
Dan: You know, people who who who believed in a young person with a goal. Yeah, no, that’s awesome. That’s super helpful. So, and then as far as you said that medicine.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so, I think that’s a lot of the things that aviation or very much a lot like to me. I think discipline would be one. What else do you think there’s just a lot of like a likeness to them to them discipline.
Dan: That is definitely one of them. I think one of the things is is really trusting, trusting your gut.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And kind of trusting yourself, the version of you that decided to take on that endeavor in the first place. Yeah. You know, like I saw something in myself or at least I thought I did.
Dan: That allows me to kind of push through. Yeah. And then again, I think it also taught me to to open my mouth and ask. People for help. Yeah. Ask people for advice. I think it’s it can be kind of intimidating. Like, oh my goodness. Like, I know this person’s super busy there. Or busy physician or busy pilot or somebody that’s in the middle of their career. Yeah. But so many people are willing to share their stories. Yeah. That I. That’s one of the biggest things that it taught me is yeah. People are always willing to help and connections to build connections with. People who are like minded and and people who also have very similar passions. Yeah. That’s a really good point. I think that everybody has a story to tell. But everybody. Everybody wants to tell their story to. And even if there are people like, well, I want to talk to this surgeon or physician or, you know, whatnot. Just.
Dan: Even as scary as it sounds. Just ask because you’ll be surprised on even if like we’re so busy doing stuff like I’m happy to talk about what I.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I think that’s really important is is trying to ask ask for that help. So.
Dan: These conversations that you had with these physicians, was it now? So they said, okay, let’s get your license. And then. Yeah. So a lot of these conversations.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And just people that were that saw me at the airport, new, can I was doing a lot of them were willing to share.
Dan: Their specialties and kind of what it works. You know, what works about their specialty, what they find difficult. And one of them was an OBGYN. Okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And he is probably one of the doctors that I knew from the youngest age. I knew him from my church congregation and he also was flying out of the same airport that I. And his kind of advice to me was, you know, go and do like, if you’re thinking about a specialty, you don’t need to be thinking about that.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you’ve seen kind of thing. And another one that was really influential was an oncologist. Okay. Nice. Yeah. And good feel.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And he kind of talked to me, I was like, so tell me about oncology. And he’s like, you need to be prepared for really difficult conversations. And he’s like, you need to be a cheerleader every single day with everyone of your patients. Because it becomes heavy. Yeah. And you know, you might have a diff. And you might have a difficult conversation with, you know, one patient, but you need to be your best self when that next patient walks in the room.
Dan: Because they’ve got their own set of challenges and. You need to be able to let that other person’s situation, you know, at the door for the moment, nothing you stop thinking about how am I going to help them, but you need to be able to be present for the patient. Yeah. Yeah. That’s a lot. It is. College is a lot. Yeah. And when you go on your rotations with oncology, you’re going to see like the heaviness of the news. That you’re going to have to give or write the joy on the other side, the emotions and oncology, no matter what kind of like specialty within that you go. It is. It is very heavy, very taxing. I feel like that’s that’s a high burnout to me. Role just because of what physician. I mean, you think about it, you’re saying, say you see just even 15 patients a day, like to be able to kind of reset, be that strong person for them. That’s tough. Like this. Yeah. And that’s very hard. I think in any specialty, it can be. Yeah. It can be tough. Yeah. Absolutely.
Dan: That’s great. I mean, I think that a lot of it we talked on other episodes about just kind of knowing yourself as far as what special you want to go into.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And if that’s something that you really want to do, then you can.
Dan: Probably handle it, right? Then you, if you’re just like this really good listener and just giving good advice and encouragement and kind of reset and going to the next person, that might be a great, great. specialty for you. I had a hard time doing that. Yeah. But yeah. So well, no, that’s awesome. Those are good conversations. And so do you talk to those? I guess. Not so much. Yeah. They’re kind of wrapping up their careers as far as I.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I know that there’s definitely more that I’ve kind of picked up along the way.
Dan: of people that also have kind of mentored me. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so I try to, there’s still some,
Dan: there’s quite a few physicians that I still talk to you. Yeah. I just, a couple of weeks, well, a couple of months ago, there was something in radiology. Man, I don’t understand, like what,
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: like, what am I looking at here?
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it was just cool.
Dan: I snapped a picture of it and I sent it to my friend. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And he was like, oh, radiology, nice. And then went on to explain to me exactly how to,
Dan: you know, look at it. Perfect. Wow. Like people, people really are on your team. Yeah. They are. They really are.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that you just got to find them.
Dan: You just got to find your, your folks. Right.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that’s great.
Dan: Well. Did any of them sway you in any direction of, of any specialty, anyone, any, I guess, couple
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: that you’re like thinking of?
Dan: It’s changed over the years. Yeah. I think when I was younger, I think the first type of doctor I ever wanted to be was a dermatologist. Yeah. It’s probably eight years old. I had to go to the dermatologist for something. I’m like. I’m going to do this. I’m going to be that guy. He sent me home. It was kind of funny with like all these charts and these pamphlets.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I was so excited.
Dan: I actually hung him up in my room. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it’s like.
Dan: You walk in my room and it’s not like, oh, like a cool picture, whatever. It’s like, oh, psoriasis, you know, in my room. Yeah. That’s so funny.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that was probably one of the first ones.
Dan: Anastasia. Amergent sea medicine. Yeah. Maybe orthopedics. I have to put that in there because I know. Oh, yeah. But you have some good stories that have led you. Maybe into thinking about what we did. Yes. Yes.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And we’ll get into that. So well, good. So tell me now about your mission. So you had your six weeks.
Dan: You better figure out how to. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: The language and you go to Rome and don’t you go with a partner?
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Isn’t there like a partner that you go with?
Dan: Yeah. Sometimes they, yeah, you’re always.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And there’s personalities that mesh and don’t mesh.
Dan: Oh, man. But yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So we get to Rome and like, OK, where am I going?
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so they.
Dan: They tell you within that, like when you get to like the call, like the mission office. Oh, OK. They say, all right, we’re going to go here.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And this is who you’re going to be with for the next six weeks to three months kind of
Dan: thing. Gotcha.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I went.
Dan: The first place I went to was Sicily, which was kind of exciting. It was the funny thing was is there’s so many different.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So maybe a hundred, two hundred words that I learned in my crash course of Italian did
Dan: not serve me at all because this. they speak like cichilliano. It’s just a kind of a southern dialect and I’m like man like I’m just hitting my head against the wall and I do not understand these people.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it was really good and funny. I was terrible. I was terrible at a tell. People were, you know, people around me that were the same amount of time.
Dan: I was like, oh my gosh, I still don’t speak this. And then I get to, I get to Rome and I’m like, wow, I understand these people.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And when I’m speaking to them, they’re like, why does it sound like you’re from the south?
Dan: Like, I would say words are like, that’s not a tell. They’re like, that’s Sicilian. That’s so funny. I had no idea. So I was like, we had a good laugh, but I put so much time into it.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I had some tears over not being able to speak to people. That’s what I was assigned to do.
Dan: Isn’t that frustrating? This language barrier? 100%. Yeah. And then I think about like language barriers here, you know, in the West, like just how frustrating that is for a patient and the physician.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then I had a lot of times. And anything like during that time, as far as like medical stuff or anything that stood out or.
Dan: Yeah. So I had a. I had a few experiences where I got to go to the hospital as a missionary, which is not ideal. But it was actually kind of interesting. I tried. I had to take every moment and learn from it regardless of whether it stinks or it’s a great moment. But I had this really bad. We walk a lot. I think on average, we’re walking. 10 miles a day or so. I had this really gross infected toenail that just kind of got out of hand. Yep. And I ended up having to go have surgery.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And my whole foot was swollen and it was not good. It was painful to walk.
Dan: Well, I ended up having surgery on my toe.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And one of the things was, like, I don’t remember the rules exactly, but they wouldn’t let me be sedated.
Dan: Oh, OK. Because like that. Sure. Like so, like the universe, I could be totally wrong about this. But I think as far as the surgery, they would do it and it would be covered under like. Like universal healthcare system that they have. That makes sense. Yeah. But if I wanted to be sedated, that would be an additional cost to me.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it kind of exposed me to that a little bit.
Dan: Oh.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So because I was probably a very big advocate of, I think, you know, Europe has a lot better.
Dan: You know, healthcare is super expensive. I mean, we see it. I mean, and it’s a pain to go through insurance.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I think it kind of made me realize like, hmm, maybe that way is not perfect.
Dan: But what I think it has caused me to do is reflect on how our healthcare is running, how other countries ever run because I’ve been exposed to it. You know, I’ve been directly. I think it’s really hard to be treated by it. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I think almost every day about man, like what is something that we could do to make it
Dan: more accessible, more affordable without, you know, cutting.
Dan: That would be great. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Because it’s, I’m always thinking about, man, how can we make this better?
Dan: Yeah. No, absolutely. It’s so cool. Tell like our listeners is.
Dan: I mean, you’ve already got a lot going for you.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I think you, it sounds like you’ve learned a lot. And I think you’ve learned a lot too about yourself about, you know, like, hey, I want
Dan: to go into this or this is what I really want to do, Madison.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What would you, what advice would you give?
Dan: I, for me. I kind of go back and forth like, man, if I would have had a more streamlined thing, I’d be wrapping up right now. I’d be ready to start. I know. Yeah. You know, rotations or maybe residents. Yeah. You know, I’m grateful for every experience that I’ve had.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And that time, you know, kind of in between, you know, working and doing, doing many different
Dan: things, not even in healthcare.
Dan: I think you’ve learned a lot about that. I think you’ve learned a lot about that. I think you’ve learned a lot about that. Yeah. Like that was a big thing. Like, well, it looks like you kind of were indecisive. Hm. That’s interesting.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And my response was, well, trying all these things helps me. When you say, yeah, you know, I really enjoy that.
Dan: Yeah. But I think I enjoy this more. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it kind of made me more confident in the decision that I, that I.
Dan: I think that’s great.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Especially when folks are like, what should I put in my application? What life experiences should I put? What are they going to ask me about? Is it good that I’ve had maybe a bunch of jobs or maybe travel? Or maybe, so what would you say to people? Would you meet out stuff or would you say, just put it out there?
Dan: That’s what you’ve been doing. Yeah. I tried. I tried. I worked on kind of my narration of like how I explain these situations and these experiences. But absolutely, if there’s something that was in.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you learn something from it or it, you felt like it helped you develop characteristics.
Dan: Absolutely. I think, you know, we imagine.
Dan: There are equal amounts of kind of traditional linear paths as non-traditional paths. Yeah. Really, really cool, interesting, interesting stories.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you know, people kind of, some of the work experiences that people have had are just like,
Dan: wow. That is not related at all to medicine.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: How did you get here?
Dan: Like, I’m glad that you’re here.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I thank you for sharing this with me.
Dan: But there really is no one right way to do it. Yeah, I had in medical school, there is one of my friends who. Because most people are like, oh, you know, when you go into college, you’re like, oh, I’ll do biology. That’s kind of the track for, you know, medicine.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And one of my friends in art history.
Dan: That was the thing. It was. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you’re doctor.
Dan: Yeah. Like, hey, it doesn’t matter. Like you can get there. Right. If you really wanted, you really can get there. Absolutely. That’s awesome.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And another thing you had was with, so you did your mission. And then I did some chronic pain management stuff. Was that after? Was that during? Where was that?
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I, that was during, I was going to school and I was working at the same time, not full
Dan: time. I was taking part time classes. The way.
Dan: I was able to kind of work part time and school and do, and do school, which was kind of cool because it really kind of helped me see the bigger picture like while I was going to school. Mm hmm. Some like organic chemistry lab days. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And this is brutal.
Dan: Yeah. But then I go into the clinic and get to see some people that, you know, recognize me.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it’s like.
Dan: Oh, this is why I’m doing that. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it really kind of helped me see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Dan: Because I got a taste of it, you know, while I was still in school, which was super… beneficial, super impactful too. Yeah. No, I think that’s great. I think I always tell folks if you can shadow too and just maybe have a breakup from, you know, the… the studying or undergrad type stuff, I think that that’s super helpful because then you’re like, okay, when you go in, you’re like, this is what I’m, you know, going after because, yeah, when everybody hates… it’s organic chem. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So when you’re kind of in it and you’re putting your head down, you’re doing all the studying, and you get frustrated, or you don’t get a good grade, like why am I? Why?
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Like, of course, was this like you study on your own? Any events happen around there?
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So my MCAT journey, it was a little bit crazy.
Dan: I was… I just graduated or is about to graduate. It was kind of weird. I forgot to apply for graduation.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I was still working and it was great.
Dan: Because I still got to use the campus facilities. It was great. Yeah. But I have to go to class. But so with that, I was, you know, kind of working and working at the… the clinic and doing an MCAT, I did an MCAT prep course. Okay. It’s like $1,500. I mean, it was a stingy… I was like, man, like… for…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I had my opinions about MCAT prep courses.
Dan: Yes. But yeah, so I was… I’ve been prepping for the MCAT in the springtime.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And kind of after classes and still working. And I was kind of getting up too close to a test day. And I…
Dan: My friends can… I’m not going to be able to play soccer with them. They needed an extra person on the intramural team.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I’m not graduating yet, so I can still play.
Dan: There you go.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I ended up breaking my feet.
Dan: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Someone just kicked you really hard. No, to be honest, man, I thought… Well, if anybody… listening knows me. I say I was playing soccer. I was warming up to go play soccer. I was really just kicking the ball on the sideline and then ended up following and breaking it and my friends. My friends thought I was just messed around. It was a nice day all that he’s just laying there and taking in the sun and I was laying there probably half an hour before someone’s like, all right, Dan, are you okay? I’m a like no, I’m pretty sure my legs broken. They’re like, you could be screaming if your legs broken. I’m like, I know, I said it is incredibly painful, but I promise you it’s broken. They’re like, well… let’s try to get you stood up here. So my friends tried to help me stand up and my leg kind of folded under me. Oh my word. Oh, this is broken. I’m like, yeah, I told you.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it’s kind of fun. It was not fun at all. It was not fun at all. But that is definitely
Dan: experience. Definitely something you will never forget. No. No, I can still hear it in my mind. So maybe this is the path to ortho. We’ll see. Yeah. We’ll see. I’ve had a lot of visits to ortho for years.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So had surgery ended up doing the MCAT after surgery? Yeah. So I was in the hospital and it was my
Dan: course that you have a practice. Test set up for today. It was like my day post-op. And I’m like, oh, well, I’m going to try this.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I remember I was like, I can’t do it time. But I got this isn’t going to work out.
Dan: But I ended up doing a practice MCAT for my hospital bed. And like, I think one of the doctors came in and I was like, Hey, doc, what do you think about? And I just asked him one of my. Questions. Yeah. I was like, I’m doing MCAT prep right now. He’s like, really? I was like, Yeah, I take it in two weeks. So I got to figure this out.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And yeah. And I was totally out of it because they had an immune all kinds of meds. Yeah, sure.
Dan: Oh, wow. So that’s crazy. So I did take. Yeah, I didn’t do as well as I thought. Yeah. You know, I did better on that practice test. I was like, man, maybe I should have been, you know, doped up a little bit. Yeah. On the on the post-op. Yeah, there you go. I would have done better. Been a little more relaxed. That’s oh, that’s hilarious. What a story. That’s that’s awesome. And we’ll see you in the next video.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What was the plan now for you?
Dan: I didn’t know. You know, at this point, it was up in the air. I’m like, man, I was trying to take this and be able to apply in the fall.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you kind of have everything kind of line up.
Dan: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I’m like, man, I need to figure out how to walk again.
Dan: Yeah. It was so this is close to the actual. I’m trying to recall, I had some, I was starting my application and everything filled out. I didn’t have any.
Dan: Okay. I needed to take care of me and I didn’t make sure I’m in the right headspace because it was, it was brutal. Yeah. Like it was more mental. Like recovery stuff. Yeah. It was more mentally painful than physically painful. Just, you know, I’m a very outdoorsy. I like to be outside. I got to be doing something. That’s hard. But just being on bed rest and. It was tough. Yeah. It was so tough.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I just did not have the vigor, I guess, to keep going. I’m like, you know what?
Dan: I am going to. You can take a pause on this. Okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I ended up, I never submitted my application.
Dan: Okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I’m like, I’m just gonna.
Dan: I’m just gonna. Okay. I’m gonna work more. I loved my job. They said that once I started walk, like once I was ambulatory enough, they put me on the phones, you know, just for a couple months until I was able to walk, you know. Wow. Normally.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so how did you feel having to like shut down and because that’s hard, right? When you’re like, okay, I got this big thing coming up.
Dan: I got this application, you know.
Dan: Help people bounce back from that. That’s a really good question. I think, for me it was I’m a. always tried to be the helper. I’ve always wanted to be the one that, you know, helped. And it kind of was important for me to go through this. Because I realized I needed help and I needed to accept help. I needed somebody to help me, you know, walk in and do. Normal things that I was able to do. And I think, like, I try to look at the, you know, the
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: silver lining and all of it. It’s like, man, like, what am I learning?
Dan: I tried to, you know, even though I put, you know, med school in my application on pause,
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: I’m like, what can I do to make these experiences more valuable to me as a future physician? What can I learn from this? What kind of empathy can I develop? And I just try to keep going with
Dan: that like, okay, maybe I’m supposed to learn something. And I try to keep that mindset.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And allow people to help me. And that was, that was huge. And people encouraging me that,
Dan: well, like, this is going to give you a good story for your application. You know, just kind of trying to find. the little things that just keep me motivated and keep me going. But yeah, it was tough. And I tried to get back in the clinic as quickly as I could just so that to kind of reignite that. That flame, I guess you could say of being that, being the helper again. Yeah, you know,
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: absolutely. And then how long did you take like, like a break? Like, was it like a year? Was it two years?
Dan: break before you like, applied again, it was it was a year. I took off for that cycle and just kind of working and prepping and. Yeah, just I went full time in the clinic. So I got a lot more more hours and stuff. Because I was graduated at the, you know, yeah, limped across the stage for graduation. But. I was graduated. So I was like, well, I might as well, you know, spend as much time here in the clinic. And they were great. Like, they were like, yeah, we’ll like, we’re gonna, we’re gonna have you do what you can do. So. Oh my God, you have so, so much good stuff. So many setbacks, but you were like a, this is a great, just a winning story. I’d be honest with you. This is a lot.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And one other thing too, at some point you were an uber guy. I was. When was that? That was
Dan: 2024, I think. Yeah. Still right before then. Yeah. Yeah. So I went back to work at the clinic a little bit. Like I said, and then I wanted to move back. To Pennsylvania. There’s a lot more schools. And I was initially planning on going to school in Pennsylvania. Okay. Like, well, this is going to be a little easier to apply from home. And I think.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I was broke after going through all that. Yeah. So I was, you know, moved back in with my
Dan: parents and I had a job offer, you know, before I even left. Idaho for my undergrad. And they’re like, this is working for a hospital. And they said, we really like you. We want to, we got to go through some formalities. We think you’re our guy. And I’m like, okay, cool. This is sweet. And so they wanted to interview me in person. I went back to Pennsylvania. And I interviewed with them in person. And. They’re like, great, we got to go through the formalities. We’re going to send it over to HR.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And they’re like, so what are you kind of planning on, you know, like doing the like.
Dan: They kind of created like a five year plan for me. They’re like, oh, we think, you know, you’re one, we can have you working with this provider. And then, you know, you’re too, it was a medical assistant. Okay. And I’m like, well, I. I’m planning on certain medical school next year. And they’re like, oh, okay. And then I had to say it again. And they’re like, oh, okay. I’m like, I’m, I’m serious about this. And so that was a huge let down. I was so excited. You know, I looked up all the providers. I was really excited to work there. So I’m like, well, I got to find a job.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I was like, well, I’m going to drive some Uber.
Dan: I ended up driving Uber for, for a while, for right up until I started med school. Yeah. And that was, that was crazy. I bet it was. That was scary. And it was fun. It was scary. It was enlightening. Yeah. But it was, it was good. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So much about people. I bet. I bet. So much. Was it just conversations with people or just the interaction with everybody?
Dan: Just yeah, interact.
Dan: The wrong with being an Uber driver. Like it was fun. But people would often ask me, like,
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: why are you dressed up? You seem too polished to be doing this. I guess you could say.
Dan: Yeah. Because I drove in the project a lot. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And because I didn’t know it was the project. So I just like, oh, there’s people that needs
Dan: rides here. I’m going to be over here. And so I met a ride. You know, people in there having their best day of life, having their worst day of life. Wow.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And just conversations and trying to be a part of my community. Yeah.
Dan: Like one of my biggest… biggest things was trying to, you know, I wasn’t a person of, you know, status or connections. I wasn’t an educated person per se. But I tried to be a resource to the people that I would pick up. I would have people that would leave me business cards like, hey, I’ve got rooms for rent. He’s like, this one guy. Actually, I still have his number. He was homeless and decided he was going to help people find housing. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And he’s like, I rent rooms for, you know, like…
Dan: $10 a day or just something really just to allow people to get back on their feet. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I remember picking up people that were like, hey, I just got evicted. I’m looking for a place.
Dan: Like, oh, I have a connection for you. Let me find you housing. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that was cool.
Dan: It was super fulfilling and just being able to kind of help in my community even. I know I had a culmination of setbacks. Sure. Like, I can still benefit these people. I can still help them. Yeah. You can still be useful. You can still… Yes. Yeah. And they were more useful to me than anything, really. Like, I was filling out my secondary applications and they would ask me a lot of questions about serving the underserved and stuff.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I would, you know, I got a little bit tactful asking people, but basically,
Dan: hey, I picked you up in a rough part of town.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Like, how do you feel about going to the doctor? And a lot of them would tell me, man, I…
Dan: I haven’t been to the doctor in 20 years. I’m afraid to go to the doctor. Oh, yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And a lot of times they’re like, well, if you’re going to be a doctor, like, can you look at this rash? Can you look at this?
Dan: I’m like… No. I can’t.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So like, well, my foot’s all swollen. What do I do?
Dan: I’m like, I don’t know. But I just encourage people to go to the doctor like, hey… Like, it’s not scary. They’re here to help you. Like, how much
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: mental energy do you waste thinking about your foot vehicle?
Dan: Go to the doctor. Yeah. They were there there to help you. They’re not going to judge you. They’re going to help you. Wow.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so that gave me like all of my all of my essays that I wrote were from Uber conversation.
Dan: I bet. Wow. That’s a lot of a lot of good content. Yeah. But what are you… experience? I mean, yeah. I mean, that’s, that’s, you know, we’re not always serving the rich folks, right? It’s always, you know, it’s underserved. Population as well, which is very, very important, especially if you kind of go into the primary care setting and stuff and, you know, but yeah, that’s, that’s amazing.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So question about all these experiences. So what’s one non-medical job? Do you think future doctors should have and why?
Dan: You’ve had a lot. So you, you might be the guru for this. Something in the service industry. Yeah. I think either like waiting tables. Or, you know, doing door dash or Uber or something. That was just interacting with people. Like you never know who’s going to, you’re going to interact with. In the next 10 minutes. And, you know, you learn customer service. You learn, you know, kind of the other side of,
Dan: I don’t want to say the other side of. The picture, but it’s like you get to see like people with dumb crazy stories on me.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I had to be available to answer and listen.
Dan: I’m like, man, I’m going to have these conversations. As a physician, especially if I do go into something primary care, I might be able to build a report with somebody, you know, that they, after 10 years of seeing another doctor. They’re willing to open up and talk to me about depression or something that they’re not. They haven’t been comfortable talking about. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So just learning how to talk to every kind of person is.
Dan: Has been awesome. Yeah. I can, I’m getting better, but at first I was like, I don’t know what to talk about with these people, but it’s funny. I learned I’m like, oh. You can find something in common with everybody. Absolutely. I totally agree with that. No matter where you come from, you know, socioeconomic status, any of that, you can find something. Absolutely.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And that’s a really good, really important, I should say, trait to learn as a physician. So I think that’s a really good point.
Dan: So, and then tell me what would you say to pre-med to feel like they don’t have really
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: impressive experiences? So say they just went straight through and they didn’t have all the traveling and different job.
Dan: And, you know, I tell them they’re not any less likely to get into medical school. Or so, hold your advice, be for them. My advice. Would be is just learn from the experiences that you do have. Everybody’s got some kind of experience. Yeah. Sure. So, you know, you’re your experience, but be authentic about it. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: You know, reflect on what did you learn?
Dan: What, like, how did that experience, whether it can be the most, you know, seemingly to you with the smallest, most insignificant thing. But if you learned something from it, reflect on it.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And think about, man, how am I a better person now?
Dan: Just don’t try to fit into the box. There’s really not the ideal medical student. We all have different experiences because ultimately we’re going to see a variety of patients. We’re going to have, you know, variety of experiences practicing medicine. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And as long as you learn something from it, it’s not, you know, something that.
Dan: Went to waste. Yeah. It was like, that’s my best thing. Learn something from everything and everybody. Yeah. No, I love it.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And the reflection part, I think, is super, super important. And so tell me what’s the hardest moment of your journey that no one saw has seen, sees?
Dan: It could be medical school. It could be flight school. It could be Uber. It could be your mission.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What do you think?
Dan: Yeah. I think for me, it’s kind of breaking my leg kind of. Led to some more investigations of, you know, why, you know, I was 25.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Why is a 25 year old man breaking his leg?
Dan: You know. Very low impact. It kind of led me down a course of a lot of different doctors and figuring things out.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And turns out that I’ve super.
Dan: Low bone density and degenerating bone density. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And trying to, you know, think about man, I got to keep myself healthy.
Dan: I’ve, and I’ve got to try all these different medications that they throw at me.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I know with some of them are, I’m like, man, this is really going to be tough. And I, you know, when.
Dan: We each without sleeping, you know, in med school. Yeah. Because the medication is messing with my hormones and everything. It’s, it’s just kind of not a. Suffering. I definitely have some friends that kind of know what I’m going through, but until, I mean, until I’d see two months ago, it was, it was really rocky. Just until. Everything figured out and all the providers kind of set up and, yeah, specialists that I need to get me through. I mean, that’s, that’s been really tough. Yeah. Well, good for you. I’m proud of you that you’ve been sticking through it and it sounds like you have a good support system or at least some like friends and stuff like that. I think that’s, I think that’s super important.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And going through.
Dan: I think as the hardest part of medical school is the first year because it’s that transition and just being able to be like, it’s hard, but I’m good. Right. You know, like that’s really important to just state like. Yeah, this is the reality of it, but I’m doing good. I’m making it. Yeah. That’s really good.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I’m proud of you.
Dan: Sure. Okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So we’re at our rapid fire questions.
Dan: So. One setback that ended up being a blessing.
Dan: You’re like, I got plenty of stuff.
Dan: Set back to become a blessing.
Dan: I think. I think it’s hard to say, but I think breaking my leg.
Dan: I didn’t realize. It’s a huge setback. It was. I just didn’t realize.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: How many people really did care about me?
Dan: And, you know, wanted to not let me lose focus on my goals. Yeah. That was huge. Yeah. That was huge for me. I just I realized how big my my village is. I guess you could say. That’s awesome. Yes. You need you need a village. You can’t do this alone at all.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that’s great.
Dan: One skill outside of outside of academics that helped you most.
Dan: I think learning another language and really suck at it. First.
Dan: Yes. Because medicine is another language. It really is. True. Yeah. But the cool thing is Italian, there are some words and I’m like, oh, that’s got this. There we go.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it’s not super helpful.
Dan: But sometimes it’s like a little gem here. But I think that was something that it’s like, man, like you struggle with. But it proved to be that I can do something hard that I’m not necessarily like the quickest to pick up. Yeah. Well, that’s great. One piece of advice for pre-med struggling right now. Reach out. There’s a lot of people that care about you.
Dan: Work just work on. Be in a presence in your community and your circle.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I think sometimes the best way to help yourself is to help other people.
Dan: Yeah. No, absolutely. With morale and even academically, if it’s, you know, trying to help somebody that’s also struggling in a class, just trying to teach each other. That was huge for me in undergrad. Oh, nice. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that would definitely be a top recommendation that I would have.
Dan: Yeah. No, I think that’s great. Okay. Finish this sentence. Your path doesn’t have to be perfect to blink.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So your path doesn’t have to be perfect.
Dan: To be blink. To be successful. Yeah. I think that’s kind of the first thing that would come to mind. That’s great. It doesn’t have to be, it just has to be yours. I can say it too. Yep. Absolutely. I love that.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then last question. What is the biggest lesson your journey has taught you about becoming a physician?
Dan: I think. I think just being able to accomplish hard things.
Dan: Yeah. You got to lean on other people. You got to be a friend. You got to always be available to help other people too. I think just kind of build. Building your network of people that you care about and care about you helps you get through the hardest times. You know, it makes those celebrations the. You know, getting into, you know, one of your choice programs just even more exciting when people have seen the your hardest times. Yeah. I think that’s, you know, more people to help you when you’re down, but more people to celebrate with you. Absolutely. During those successes. Yeah. No, I think that’s fantastic. It’s hard to be. Vulnerable, I think.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I mean, that’s, you know, that’s just a hard thing in humans in general,
Dan: but to be vulnerable to see those people, but to know that those people are there to help you.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And when it’s like, when you’re winning, they’re going to be with you.
Dan: Absolutely.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And that’s, and that’s finding your, finding your folks. So well, this has been fantastic.
Dan: Dan, thank you so much for just. It’s just like you’ve done a lot of things at your young age.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So and the start of medical school. So but you’re going to do.
Dan: Fantastic things, but thank you so much for being on here.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I hope you guys enjoyed this as much as I did.
Dan: Hope it helps you out tremendously in your studies and your pre-med journey. And. That’s it for today.
