Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Hello everyone and welcome to the Med Mentor podcast. Dr. Tracy Lawyer, orthopedic surgeon in Boise, Idaho. And…
Sam: This is our episode 11. So I’ve been getting great feedback from everybody and kind of getting the questions you guys want to hear and the advice and tips and… Again, I’m not the star of this, but my all my Sam star and all these medical students who have sacrificed their time or after tests to be able to talk with you guys.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So hopefully you guys are enjoying it. And in this episode, I have Sam. Sam, how you doing? Good, how are you? I’m doing great.
Sam: I’m doing great. It’s a Friday, so that’s good. Alright, so we’ll start with the easy questions. Sam, what year are you in medical school? Currently at the end of my first year of medical school. Yeah. That’s kind of like a good sigh of relief right there. It was great. It was good. And so tell me, you guys just finished up some testing, I think. Yep. Yeah, last week was our… Like kind of the end of block finals week. So finished up cardio, started up respiratory this last Monday and so far it’s been good. So physiology. Nice.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then when do you kind of finally end? Is it like a month or so that maybe you’ll… Yeah, so we’ll have three more weeks of content and then one last finals week. So I think our last day is May 22nd. Okay, tell me about finals week because it’s very different than undergrad. Is it just… Is it one test? Is it multiple tests over that week or how does that work? So multiple tests over the week and it kind of depends on what the course is. So for us, we have what’s called a C-Med course of our clinical education and so that’s where we do our physical education. So we have a C-Med course of our exam maneuvers and stuff like that. That’s usually one exam and that’s on Mondays and that’s usually like in the form of a practical. Okay, yay.
Sam: There’s two different formats of that. Other than that… Like anatomy was too, so we had a written in a practical form on different days. Our osteopathic class also has a written in a practical component.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And the block horse is just one big giant written test. So it’s kind of split up pretty evenly. I would say I think they do a pretty good job of making sure that you have enough time to study everything.
Sam: It’s one big giant week of everything last year. Testing. Yeah. Last one and then you guys get… At least the first year as you guys will get a good summer.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so and then you’ll kind of roll into second year. Well, good. Well, tell us about your kind of pre-medical journey coming into medical school and you can kind of start anywhere.
Sam: Everybody’s been very different, which has been amazing because not everybody starts everywhere. You guys all kind of finish in the medical school, but you guys start at different places. So tell us about your dream. I’m really from Phoenix, Arizona. I live there my whole life. So I got my bachelor’s in medical studies from Arizona State in downtown Phoenix. I graduated from there in three years. Luckily. I got it through pretty quick and came to medical school right after undergrad. So really kind of two week break between schools. Okay, good. Wow. It has its pros and cons. Yeah. I felt kept me in the groove, but also I didn’t really get to do a whole lot in the summer before. It was planning my move. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So yeah, I did my honors thesis there with a couple of great faculty members.
Sam: I was on like pharmaceutical design for pancreatic cancer. It’s got a lot of experience with that. Before that, I worked in personal training. I was a gym manager for a little bit and I worked in physical therapy. I worked in physical therapy for a little over two years before coming to medical school. I did most of my volunteering at hospitals. I did some internship with clinical research. There’s a lot of fun. I got kind of a big. of knowledge and it felt good and I’m glad that I ended up wearing it. Nice. So I think you’re the first one who’s gone straight through because we’ve been on a lot of the other medical students have like taken a gap year or maybe even taken up to 10 years off so this is really good for those students that are like now. I just want to go straight through and get it done. I know it’s going to be 14 years of my life so
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: tell me like always wanted to be a doctor kind of knew this path or just kind of jump.
Sam: I knew that I wanted to be somewhere in the medical field probably a doctor since the time I was probably in third grade. Nice. Like. I read a bunch of autobiographies and you know get some book reports on you know like neurosurgeons
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: and stuff like that and from there I was like hooked. Yeah. I don’t think I wanted to do.
Sam: Surgery now. It really got me into the idea of like this is something that I find really interesting
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: and as I kind of continued and like it started to do jobs that I enjoyed I found that.
Sam: A lot of it kind of is pushing me towards the direction of medicine anyways. Okay. So through you know personal training my whole job was getting people to their health goals. Yeah. Obviously not as you know in depth as you would as a physician but I really had a passion for it
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: and I really like seeing people get you know results and seeing progress and seeing their lives change from it. Yeah. And I thought what could I do more you know. So what what is the next step? And so after that you know working in physical therapy more of like a clinical setting.
Sam: I really got to see the impact like exercise and like just how a care team actually works and the kind of impact that it has on patients especially with orthopedic. Injuries like I’m sure that you’re aware like some of those are they’re really long recoveries. Absolutely. Yeah. And the the surgeon makes the world of the difference in that pain. As well as everybody else in their care team. So all the physical therapists any occupational therapy they may or may not have to do. Some people might like the nursing staff at the health care.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I saw that and I was like well like that’s that’s like really what I want to do.
Sam: Yes.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So the
Sam: culmination of all of that like the pinnacle for me and what I find the most interesting and where I really feel like I can make the most impact is as a physician and so that’s what kind of drove me. So with that in mind I was like yep let’s see. Was this during like undergrad or when were you like doing school, doing personal training, doing all the stuff at the same time or did you like take it because it sounds like you didn’t really take a break to stop. I did not. I think that the only time I really wasn’t working as much was my first. semester of undergrad. I just tried to like you know see what it was like and I was like this is boring. So I started working then. I did personal training in high school. Okay. And so I worked as a personal trainer my senior year for a while and did some gym management over the summer leading into undergrad and I was like okay give myself a little bit of a
Sam: break and so that whole. First semester I didn’t really do anything except for focus on my studies and after that kind of got back into gear and that’s kind of when everything just started to fall and so. One thing led to another and most of my experiences kind of culminated like my junior in I guess junior year of my undergrad and from there I was just kind of. The same time. Man that’s a lot of discipline and a lot of time management. You can do all that work and then you actually are. It was good though. It was good. It honestly feel like it probably helped me with medical school and learning how to manage my time because that is a real struggle for people, I feel like. Especially. Like even with having to deal with a lot in undergrad all at once, which is not even as much as a lot of other people do. Sure. It definitely helped. Yeah. It’s a rough time.
Sam: I’m trying to manage time in medical. Oh yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so did you take like, did you do your MCAT during that time to like, you know, you were doing your application?
Sam: For me at least, it was kind of a little bit rushed honestly. I didn’t know going into my first year that I’d be able to finish in three years.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I kind of found out like in the middle.
Sam: I love my second year that they were like, oh, hey, like, you could finish in three years if you wanted to.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I was like, why would I pay all extra euro?
Sam: School. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I’m going to go ahead and go for it. And then so I had to kind of work backwards from there. So it’s like, OK, well, if I’m going to graduate an extra year early,
Sam: everything else gets shifted also. Mm-hmm. I said to figure out real quick, what do I have to do in order to. I’m going to set myself up to succeed.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so I had to take my MCAT like halfway through my second year, like kind of around when I found out time I was OK.
Sam: I’m going to try it. I’m going to see. I knew I wasn’t going to do like the best that I was going to do. I was going to go taking it twice.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I was like, OK, where are my gaps? What can I do with this? So I took my first one midway through my second year.
Sam: I hadn’t finished OK yet. I hadn’t finished my OK. I hadn’t finished physics.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Did you just study on your own or did you do a course?
Sam: Yeah, I studied with a lot of the Khan Academy stuff. Oh. OK. That was really all I found. A lot of people do question banks and U-World. If I were to go back and do it differently, I probably would have. I was just kind of rough. I didn’t really know like at that point what the best resources were.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so that’s what I did. And then I took it again at the end of my second year once I kind of finished stuff.
Sam: Oh, OK.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I was like, all right.
Sam: Oh. If I do good on it, then I’ll send in my application. OK.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What I didn’t know beforehand is that you could send in your applications not having your score
Sam: released yet. Oh, interesting. That’s good. I didn’t know that you could do that. You can elect to say that your score is pending and you can still send in your applications as soon as they open, which I feel. I feel like it would have been a really good idea for me to do. For everybody, you kind of have to weigh it though. If you’re not sure how you’re going to do it, you might want to wait until the next cycle. Because if you end up applying for a second time, I feel like some programs see that as a good thing, yeah, and stuff.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: But other programs might want to be like, OK, well, what did you do different? So you have to find things to fill your resume to be able to answer that question when that
Sam: comes around. Interesting.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And the next cycle is like the next year, correct?
Sam: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it’s like, I’m pretty sure it.
Sam: Like the application is open around May.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it’s for the following year. So for me, I would have had to, or what I did do is apply May after my second year of undergrad. So I just started medical school after I finished my third year and last year of undergrad. So there’s a lot of timing going on.
Sam: Like you got to kind of plan ahead. Like this isn’t just like a, oh, when. You got to get the cycle right, be able to get your application. You do.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And application is not like a little essay.
Sam: It’s like lots of stuff. It was a lot of work. Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I did have to figure it out, all on your own.
Sam: Okay. It would have been really nice to like, know people who went through the process, but I didn’t. Absolutely.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so to those people listening.
Sam: Yeah.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What would happen to you?
Sam: Make sure you know when the applications open. Your chances at getting into whatever school you want are probably better the sooner that you send in that. If you’re at the top of the stack, I feel like they’ll probably look at you first. Okay, that’s really good too. Yeah, and so even if you don’t have your NCES scores in or whatever it is, you can… You can still send it in the application and by the time that they do the interview, your score probably will be posted. Gotcha.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it usually works out pretty alright.
Sam: That’s really good. We really haven’t talked in depth about the cycle and application process.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then application, is it still…
Sam: I remember when I went back and… It depends on the school too.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So there were some schools that I applied to that you didn’t…
Sam: I think it’s MCAS and then whatever the other one is, I honestly don’t remember. Probably would be something for me to look at. Yay! Talk to more people. But after you have that in place, you can go from there. I’m trying to remember where I was. Yeah, no, just like the application.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So if you have some schools, you have primary and secondary, some only just have one application. So I think that’s just important for folks to know.
Sam: I think a lot of people also like to try to pre-write their secondaries too. Much like it’s been…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So a lot of people post on forums online or stuff from previous year secondary questions.
Sam: A lot of people will try to pre-write those. You get closer and they release the secondary to you. If they have extra questions, you can answer them much quicker than going through the seven that they have total. Nice.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so just kind of like…
Sam: I don’t know really if it makes that big of a difference.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it’s helpful.
Sam: Anything’s helpful. Yeah, like there are little things you probably can do to help. I don’t know, but I know it’s a great thing. I’m telling everybody heads up. I hope the people take that. Good. Absolutely. Well, that’s good.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then did you apply to a lot of schools? Did you do DO and MD?
Sam: Did you…
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Yeah, allopathic and osteopathic?
Sam: Yes. I applied to both. I don’t remember how many I applied at. I think it was probably like maybe more than 20. Okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Something like that?
Sam: Yes. Allover or… Yeah, it was mostly… Regional. I picked… There you go. I love it. I love it. Yeah. People can pick where they want to go based on whatever the heck they want. If it is related to… academic hospitals that they maybe affiliated with, location or whatever it is. For me, I wanted to live in a place that I thought was pretty. I would enjoy coming from Arizona. A lot of dirt and mountains and rocks and stuff.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And every time I would travel and see grass
Sam: on the side of the highways and trees. But yes, that’s where I want to be.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So that really was a pretty big driving factor for me and thinking where I wanted to go. And it’s been great being here. And I know it’s so much greener than.
Sam: It is great. I love it. Yeah, that’s really important because you have to think you’re going to be it, wherever you’re going to be it for four years.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So you want to, you know, if you want to just try.
Sam: I’m going to be the city then apply to places near city or something like that. Or I’m going to apply kind of all over just because I wanted to meet different people. I was from the West Coast.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I wanted to meet other people. So yeah, I think that’s a good thing to think about as far as that. And then did you know any like do you.
Sam: Like kind of swayed you.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Did you know any physicians coming in or how did you make that decision that direction? So one of the main physicians who.
Sam: Was sort of like a mentor to me kind of coming up in my medical journey. Was it the oh, okay. He is an ENT doctor and you know did some work in orthopedics before to. Oh, nice. Which residents.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And he was great.
Sam: Like my grandpa at one point in time had like cancer in his neck. I wish I could tell you the exact name of it. But I don’t know. That’s fine.
Sam: I was in the care that like he gave my grandpa. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. It was a you know different than any other physician that I had seen. It might just be a hint thing. He is a great guy. Yeah. I saw that and I was like. Wow. Like that’s really cool. Like I’ve never really heard of you know, do programs or what really the difference was. Yeah. I had no idea going into it. I don’t think many people do. Like I didn’t know.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I just had no idea between.
Sam: I was like, oh my gosh, that’s so cool. You know it’s like I have no one going in that there was the program. Yeah. Like back when I was doing it.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I had I just didn’t go into that until I saw people that were like my fellow colleagues were. and then I was asking questions, but I was in fellowship.
Sam: But I think that’s a lot of people were like,
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: well, what should I do?
Sam: You know, kind of thing. So.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it seems like a lot of people have mentors who are DOs or mentors who are allopathic MDs. So and that seems to kind of take them in that direction. So although that’s good. Okay, so we’re coming in, applied, and how many interviews do you think you did? Or do you do interview up here and you’re like, sold?
Sam: I.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I think that I come with my first interview or maybe my second interview.
Sam: Okay.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I’d say, yeah, I think it was my second because I remember that I liked it much better than my first one.
Sam: Okay. Like you really can kind of get a feel for the people who you’re going to be around. Yes. Faculty personalities are like, by the way, that they interview. Yeah. Some of them like to do like the whole good cop that cop. Yeah. I think that’s the kind of thing. I feel like I come maybe try to do that, but they’re so nice that it was really just kind of just good cop. Yeah. It was pretty good.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so like I think in total I probably did.
Sam: Like six or seven interviews.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I really got the sense, at least from my school, that they actually wanted you to be
Sam: there and they were excited to have you there. That’s. Like. Yeah.
Sam: That’s definitely the best of all the interviews that I did. That’s really important just because you want to be comfortable with whatever school you’re going to. I mean, I remember interviewing. I had a. I can be here for 40 years, I think. Yeah. That’s what you have to think about. Yeah. So, that’s super, super important.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Can you prepare with somebody for the interviews? Or did you just?
Sam: Yeah. Mm-mm. I don’t know. I just got it in the end. Okay. Mm hmm. specifically for medical school.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so they would prepare questions and they would ask you things and you could elect whether or not you want it to be like a blinded or not
Sam: blinded interview, which depending on which school. You’re going to interview with it. Sometimes we’ll give you that information so you can practice.
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I did one of those and it was like kind of a short notice thing. So we just did it like he was able to see my interview or my
Sam: resume and I practiced that and Felt good and then every interview I did after that was nothing like it. Yeah, like it kind of just depends Yeah, I feel like if you know your resume through interview, which you should yeah, it’s your story on a piece of paper Yes, and you can speak to things and you can speak to your experience
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: and why they matter and why you put them on your resume you do pretty good. Just kind of have to be yourself, you know
Sam: Yeah, come prepared obviously. Mm-hmm. No, you don’t want to be stumbling over your words too much. Yeah, it’s important to take a breath. Yeah, you know whenever they ask questions and you need to think about it. Okay. Yeah Compose yourself Yeah, yeah, yeah, and they’re not trying to trick you like I don’t think any of that Even if I didn’t really like the place like I felt like they weren’t trying to trick me I think they were just Trying to get to know me a little bit better. So and it’s not like they’re looking at
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Can this person be a doctor or they’re like can I can we train this person is this?
Sam: Person trainable is this person does have the passion to be able to get you know through the hardships of medical school. So I think that’s you know, These are always tough, but once you go through like the first two to three Then I feel like all of the other ones are the similar or you’re kind of like, okay. I got you heading home. Yeah Yeah, so we’re good. Yeah, that is pretty much how I felt the first one was like crazy nerve-wracking here like oh my gosh Can’t believe that this is what I’m doing Yeah, then you know as you kind of go through it stress it feel a little bit better and you just kind of remember It’s just a conversation. Yes, and you interviewing them as just as important as you drink You absolutely you have that choice to say no and it’s not the school for me Yeah, and I think once you kind of put that into perspective to it kind of helps you take a little bit of the power
Sam: Supposed to be here. They wanted to interview me and then you can kind of have a good time with it. Nice Yeah, yeah, very very good advice. Tell me about your letter recommendations, and then we’ll kind of move on
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: to medical school stuff sure like who did you ask how many letters did you ask for to you know? How did you go about doing that? I think that I probably
Sam: Had about five or six letters a recommendation total I think that there’s requirements on most of those applications
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it might be school specific or it might be
Sam: Like and cast specific might have to double check that to the future students. Yeah But I think I had five or six and two of mine came from faculty ASU who I worked with with my honors thesis. Oh, nice. Okay, my organic chemistry professor and my biochemistry professor Both wrote letters of recommendation for me. Yes, and where I had like Multiple classes with them ASU’s main campus is super big and pretty unlikely for you to get the same professor twice Okay, but I went to the downtown Phoenix campus
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And it was a lot smaller and so I actually you know got pretty lucky and was able to have some of those professors for multiple classes
Sam: Oh, okay, so they had seen me for you know
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So they know over two years and I you know was a TA for one of them and I worked with them for you know
Sam: Pretty much consistently over the course of a year to develop my honest project
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so they got to know me pretty well from that good so I was always good So I think that’s definitely a requirement. I think you need some faculty letters
Sam: In addition to that The physical therapist that I was working with they also wrote me a letter of recommendation Okay, that’s great there for two years. So they could kind of speak to Like how I was with patient
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And what the care aspect of that looks like and that’s super important
Sam: All the things that you know are relevant to being a clinician and I got one from my Dio mentor. You also gave me one
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And those are good ones yeah, they were pretty good. Yeah, I think maybe I had one or two more
Sam: I don’t remember from who though off the top of my head. Yeah, so what would you say to like a pre-medical Student if they’re like, yeah, I don’t really I mean it didn’t work
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I don’t really have that and I guess you know I do have faculty
Sam: But yeah, I’m on a huge campus and I only see them once Master or something like that. What would you recommend like for them? Okay? Like maybe you did really well in that class
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you want to go to that faculty and say hey, can you?
Sam: Give me a letter of recommendation, you know, how would you I think that I would try to position yourself in a way where you’re memorable to them
Sam: You have to sit at the front of the classroom like go ahead and do that I never did I know a lot of people don’t like to do that But you could you know just so that they know your face go up and ask some questions after class go to Office hours is a really great way to do stuff like that even if you don’t need help you could just go and go to chat Yeah, just chat or ask questions that you know you might be on the scope of the class whatever it is they people really like to talk yeah, and so Putting yourself in a position where they’re able to speak on you is really the important thing Sometimes you’ll get opportunities to TA or you’ll get opportunities to know if you get lucky enough work on a research project with them Yeah, it’s not a lot of people at my campus for doing research actively most of that I was at the 10 p campus, but I do know that a lot of people all my friends who went to the 10 p campus and also were trying to get letters of recommendation
Sam: They did that they would email broadly to you know classes that they did well in and they would say like Do you know if anybody who’s doing research? Yeah, are you doing research? Do you have any opportunities to you know, maybe work a Long side you and you just kind of put feelers out. Yeah, no, I think that’s great sometimes sometimes you get a bite Yeah, sometimes you don’t yeah, sometimes you don’t and sometimes Even if you you don’t know them very well, they very well might write you a letter of recommendation right I’ll probably go in person and ask people like that Yeah I know we might not know my face. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I really enjoyed it, you know yada yada yada, yeah, and you can ask them like that or find out what you need from that
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And for them to be able to write an effective letter and then do it. Yeah, I said one of the professors who
Sam: Was at my campus he would write letters of recommendation for people based on like academic standing in the class he would like go through grades like you had this, you know Whatever these kinds of things were because everyone would ask him and so he had like a process
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So some some people might have that
Sam: Two yeah, so you could do that without really having to go and meet with your professor very often mm-hmm I think that that’s probably what I would do yeah Great tips. Yeah, absolutely. I think those are really good. I I’d say do whatever you can do to kind of meet in person I think most people who you want to get a lot of recommendation they want to meet you Yeah, you know, I think the other thing if you don’t realize is that I think you I think we got the option I don’t know if you guys got the option of reading your letter recommend Before you sent it or I never to it so I don’t I never read mine, but I think we got to click that option I don’t know if that’s still a thing I don’t think so okay, if you’re lucky whoever’s writing it will show a team beforehand You don’t have to and so the way that it works is you put down their email
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: and wherever the you know the application system is and it’s gonna send them in the email for them to upload their letter to
Sam: Yeah, and it doesn’t cross your path at all. Yeah, you might get to see Yes, like at that point it’s just kind of up in the air. It’s up in there I know so just keep that in mind so you may not be able to see what they write about you
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So but most people
Sam: I mean, I don’t even think I have any friends who got like a bad letter recommendation
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So yeah, so most people are pretty nice or they’re or they’re vague, right?
Sam: I’m big with what they’re saying or what not, but okay, so we’re first year medical school
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So what is one thing about medical school that completely surprised you?
Sam: For me it definitely was the volume of contents. Mm-hmm
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I probably would equate my first year so far as to being like
Sam: Content load of my entire undergrad degree. Yeah, it’s actually like crazy I had no idea going into it that it would be so much content so quickly and so
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And yeah, like that it really caught me off guard like I was ready for it
Sam: You were doing it. Yeah, okay. Well, you know, like I know it’s gonna be hard. Yeah, everyone Tells you it’s hard so you know you compare it to what it is in undergrad and most of the time in undergrad It’s like conceptually hard. Mm-hmm. And so as long as you feel like you can do that you feel pretty good
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then you get to medical school and you realize it’s kind of about the same like in terms of complexity as
Sam: undergrad would be but the volume is about like a hundred Times more yeah, that is probably not even an exaggeration. Yes, like you would go to You know your physiology class like twice a week for an hour
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And then that’s it. Yeah, but really medical school is like
Sam: Multiple hours every day. Yeah, and you have to study to keep up with it and that is definitely something that Was like whoa, yeah, the volume is crazy I don’t think you realize it and I it’s funny because everybody mentions that and it’s like I’m not trying to scare you but it is Just that first year because now you’re used to the volume and the second year won’t be as much of a like shock Yeah, right you’re used to that taking in that amount of information retained Doing what you need to to kind of pass the test or not, but yeah, the volume is crazy
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so what do you what do premed students think medical school is a lot? And what is it actually like so you talked about volume is there anything else that you thought it was gonna be like
Sam: But now that you’re first year like I Also didn’t really have too many ideas coming into it. I was trying to just like leave it up to whatever was gonna be Yeah going into it. I didn’t want to have any expectations Kind of like I said before I thought I’d be like super conceptually difficult like doing like Like super PhD crazy depth like a lot of Yeah, and some of it is like that. Yeah, but not that much like a lot of it is Conceptually not super difficult. I would say and obviously It depends on the subject and it’s different for everybody in my experience like there definitely has been some conceptually difficult stuff But there’s also a lot of stuff that is not that conceptually difficult
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I feel like maybe a lot of premed students might think that yeah, that’s kind of how I did
Sam: Yeah, it might be different if you know people in medical school and I can tell it to you But if you don’t have that and you know, yeah, that’s kind of kind of what I thought and definitely now It is not that way. Okay, it’s not super conceptually Difficult, right it’s totally manageable It’s a lot of volume like I said and that’s really like the crux of it. Yeah, that’s it like kind of taking in Size chunks. Yeah, so it’s day by day like you don’t want to do all your lectures and wait till the weekend to get them All you know take your notes because I promise you won’t finish. Yeah You have to stay Pretty diligent like day in and day out. Yeah, at least I do. Yeah, I tried to so After your lectures you take the notes and you study like you would be studying for an exam that very next day Mm-hmm and you do that every single day. Yeah, and then if you have a little bit of extra time on the weekends
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I try to do use it to fill in your
Sam: Gaps and Like I didn’t think that it would be that much work. Mm-hmm going into it Just because like you know undergrad it’s it’s usually not too much Especially whenever your classes you have them twice a week and you have one exam at the end of the semester
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And that’s kind of it So you really only have to like really study like maybe the week Before an upcoming exam and that could be different for everybody right?
Sam: I think I studied like mostly like one or two days before most of those undergrad exams. Yeah, yep That’s probably everybody and I thought that that could pass in medical school going into it had no idea and That’s a shocker. Yeah, you get through your first week and you realize it’s not possible Yeah, like not even close. Mm-hmm. So you kind of have to shift gears pretty quickly. Yeah, okay Every single day is like you’re studying for an exam because you are and Even if you study every single day that does not guarantee that you’re gonna do well on exam you have to like Really really really be diligent and use your time wisely I don’t think that a lot of people really had to do so much undergrad right the same level as you might have to in medical school Yeah, so it’s definitely a skill that like people develop as they go through Mm-hmm the more experience you get with it the better. Yeah, so you don’t think so you did so undergrad
Sam: You did your work in your physical therapy. You don’t think you could do another job No, no, no, no, no, I think that that’s also misconception is that it can work or something on the side in medical school and yeah I kind of go and go Into it. I didn’t expect to be able to I was like, yeah, like there’s no way like you should just kind of focus on your stuff Mm-hmm my girlfriend who’s also in medical school came into it thinking go you Maybe I’ll keep mine my remote job over the summer and I was like, hi. I’m not so sure and then you get like eat I’m serious your first week you realize no way like It is it is more than a full-time job. Yeah, like easily you are at least for us Especially first semester first nostrils. It’s pretty gross. You have a lot of Additional coursework that you don’t have you a second semester and it’s different for each medical school
Sam: But when you have anatomy going and you know, you’re in anatomy lab for four hours out of a day Before that you were in lectures for four hours. Like that’s eight hours of your day already taken up You haven’t even studied yet. So like you like for me on average. It’s probably Like maybe 45 minutes to an hour of additional studying on top of the lecture Mm-hmm just to kind of you know wrap my head around things
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so that means for a look day with four hours of
Sam: Lecture that’s an extra four hours maybe of studying. Mm-hmm. That’s like 12 hours in a day where you have anatomy left Yeah, like I don’t know anybody on earth too good Work and do that and stay sane. Absolutely. You maybe could you can try like two hours, but Then you really have to wait like is that actually worth it is it worth it or you know if you maybe if you’re making like
Sam: $10,000 an hour there you go then that would be worth it. Yeah, you know, but mostly part like no one’s even get close to that and so Definitely not working. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would not recommend it. Like the resounding. No. Yeah, so we are full-time students, so
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So if you could design the perfect pre-med prep plan, what do you think it would include?
Sam: This is an interesting
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I think that like if I were to to go back and do it or to buy somebody I probably would recommend
Sam: taking all four years, okay
Sam: Like I honestly don’t really know if it Does anything better for you other than you get done one year earlier and for you that that might matter
Sam: I thought that it would matter to me. Mm-hmm. And now I don’t know so much Like you have four years of medical school and then residency after that and that could be Depending on what you want to do between you know three and like seven or eight years. Yes, if you do a fellowship It’s an extra one to two. Yep. Sometimes more and internal meds
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so like you’re you’re spending a lot of time anyways, and so the idea of having one extra year it’s kind of a nice thought
Sam: but if you’re worried about your Application and you have a specific goal in mind of maybe somewhere that you want to go It’s not a bad idea to to take that extra time and stay in undergrad or maybe even Take a gap year and bolster your resume because it’s really only gonna as long as you use that time effectively It really is only gonna do good for you. Yeah taking last time you have a whole Last year of potentially doing research or you know volunteering or getting clinical experience and sometimes that’s the difference between you know getting in at the school that you want and not Right most people there are statistics online. I think like most people who get admitted to MD programs now Like usually have a gap year. Yeah, they usually went to school for 40
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So you kind of have to think okay well if they finish early or I want to go right after undergrad
Sam: You’re applying against people who have a whole extra If not more right then then you do and if you feel comfortable doing that and you’re ready Yeah, so for if you’re not and you want to err on the side of caution Yeah, like take it and don’t rush it. Live your life. Enjoy it. It’s okay Once you’re here you’re here here in it
Sam: It’s really good advice. Yeah, that’s awesome very cool
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What do you think are two or three skills pre-med students should start building right now before medical school? I think the first one is
Sam: Learning how to have conversations with people. That’s a good one. There’s been multiple people that have said that. Yeah, which is great. I think that it You reap so many benefits from that without really having to do so much. Yes, it’s gonna help you with your classmates It’s gonna help you with your professors. It’s gonna help you important with your patients in the future and your coworkers in Residency interviews and doing away rotations if you can’t talk to the people who you’re around
Sam: Everyone’s gonna notice and that may reflect you know poorly on whatever kind of outcomes you might you might have a harder time
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And that’s okay, too. Some people do naturally
Sam: Yeah, but if you can it’s you know, you were looking to develop a skill conversational skills are great. Yeah, that’s great Learn how to keep them going learn how to talk with people who have different interests Mm-hmm. That’s like huge one of the weird things about medical school that I found is like I Probably say I have almost nothing in common with probably 60 to 70% of students other than the fact that we’re in medical school. Yes, what we want to do. Yeah, so You kind of get you know thrown in with a whole bunch of people who are nothing like you and so you Can I be kind of have to be really different? Yeah, it’s a really fun and you know exciting Time yeah, and if you’re able to have conversations and learning with people and you know Kind of take new things and learn stuff from people. It’s a way better time It will help like tremendously and if anything other than that let’s have a study
Sam: It’s easier to say that now. Yeah, you know having I spent like a year in medical school learning but in undergrad Like all I did was just take notes on lectures then read them over and that was it and that was it. Yeah, yeah
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And if it works that you know people say don’t don’t fix it if it’s not broken
Sam: Mm-hmm. I respect that yes, but if you are looking to get into medical school I might just like try to experiment With different methods, okay, even though you might not need it. Yeah, yeah Because whenever you do get into medical school, it’s likely that what you were doing before might work To an extent, but it’s not it only goes so far right like for me Taking notes and reading lectures is great on most stuff But the second I started having To learn about from college
Sam: Yeah, doesn’t work anymore
Sam: It’s a lot of well memorization You’re good with that kind of thing and you enjoy it. It’s perfect jam for me. I like hate it like
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Everything that I want is and I want to understand how it works and why it works right?
Sam: You get to do that with micro and form. Yeah, but it will not get you the questions most of the time Yeah, you have to know the little details and the way to do that is repetition You know finding what works for you, and it can change from block to block
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So you just have to be ready to be able to adapt your study strategy and if you get more knowledge on What kind of study strategies are out there and what kind of resources while you’re in undergrad and stakes are maybe a little bit lower
Sam: Makes your life way better. Mm-hmm. I could probably would have been good to know
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: How to use all key and like everything else before I came here and I had no idea. Yeah
Sam: Yeah, I think the study schools are super important guns like for me I could do the memorization stuff For me on stuff of how stuff works I had so many mnemonics and that I had written down and you know that I just would remember the steps or what would you know Go through but yeah, I think that you have to adopt different ways of learning and you got to figure it out very quickly Yeah, you definitely do Oh goodness, okay, so and Let’s see we talked about some how long as far as how long take you to figure out your study system
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it sounds like it was pretty And then what’s one study habit that has had the biggest impact on your performance. I probably would say
Sam: Structuring your time around Things that are non-negotiable. Okay, like for me is exercise and eating well and being able to take time and hang out with your friends
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: When you need it. I think if you plan
Sam: That’s into your day like sometimes you might not get all the studying done that you need to but you have something to look forward to Mm-hmm You have something that’s constant in your day when everything else is changing. Yeah, and I think that it I think it makes it go by a little bit better. Yeah, especially to be able to Kind of disconnect from some of the stuff that you’re learning and do something for yourself
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Do you really enjoy for me that’s exercise for the people that could be you know baking or going for a walk or playing a sport?
Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I think if you plan those things I think that it helps you stay sane and it also helps you study more efficiently as you know You have something else going on. Yeah, you’re not gonna. No waste a couple hours into the Night, you know trying to figure out something that could have taken you way less time. Oh, yeah, you were like, you know You had kind of a deadline. I Think it gives you a little bit of control of something I think is kind of out of control because you can’t control all the information the volume that comes in but To me like working out was my thing or I played co-ed soccer too. So that was my life Outlet and so I was able to control that Yeah, release whatever I needed to release and then I felt better. Yeah, so because you have no control over here Or what comes at you in the next day. So so we talked about the volume
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So the sheer volume of medical school. So how do you avoid information overload? Overload? When everything is like important or high yield. I think that in the beginning, it’s really difficult
Sam: It gets a little bit better as you go through you start to learn Usually like you can kind of tell what professors will ask the more and more you get questions from them
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Which is sometimes helpful, but you also kind of learn like, okay, like what are they trying to get? With these questions, what do they want you to know? And so once you kind of can frame things in that way, it makes it a little bit easier to sort through information
Sam: Yeah, the unfortunate thing that is a lot of things are high yield
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so you do have to know a lot of things regardless
Sam: You can’t just skip through your stuff because you will get questions where if you don’t know it You definitely can’t figure it out. Yep. And so You just kind of have to take it piece by piece and Try to frame it in a way where like you’re thinking about what the end goal is You kind of learn Like what people like to test too. So a lot of people they like they might not test etiology so much or really like
Sam: Like epidemiology so much it depends on
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Professor but a lot of times it’s okay. What causes the disease? You know is there a genetic mutation associated with it if there is what is it?
Sam: Mm-hmm kind of recessive or you know autosomal dominant whatever
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Kind of inheritance pattern is it all that’s relevant information? What are like the you know key clinical presentations? What are the exam findings that would help you differentiate it from other stuff? Yeah? How do you treat it? What do you treat it with? Yeah, why does it work and what are common like?
Sam: Adverse reactions you may get with treatment all these things can kind of flow
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And whenever people write questions they this is different than under red too is like they they ask you second and third order question
Sam: Mm-hmm if you’re unsure what that is it’s Like you have to you have to know multiple pieces of information that will get you to the next one that will then be what they’re asking Yeah, so you have to have like kind of a layered understanding of what they’re asking mm-hmm and If you kind of frame your studying in a way where you are thinking of that in mind mm-hmm. It kind of helps you figure out
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What’s the high yield information? And what’s not yeah, I get a question where like they give you the symptoms of the disease and then they ask what the
Sam: adverse reaction of the treatment would be You have to know the disease know what treats it and then know the adverse reaction. Yes. Yeah, it’s kind of like an escape room I feel you got to go from one you can’t go to the next step and skip over because you got
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So yes, I think that’s very important to understand that’s very different from undergrad is the level the depth
Sam: That’s the depth right is you got to keep going That’s what you’ll be tested on yeah, and so that’s important to Figure that out early that it’s it’s not surface stuff like you you know, you’re getting in there getting in the weeds A little bit so that’s important. That’s really good. We talked a little bit about time management
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: But what do you think is a one time management mistake most students make early on?
Sam: I think that the biggest thing that will kill you in medical school is procrastination like More so than it would any other like any
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Anything like work or school or whatever it is if you procrastinate like usually can you know make it work right?
Sam: I promise like even one day of procrastination. It’s You back like so much and you really do need the extra time Like I kind of said before just because you study every day does not guarantee that you’re gonna do well an exam Doesn’t even mean that you’re gonna understand the content. It’s so much so quickly that it’s really hard no matter what you do Right, and so if you’re gonna procrastinate your automatic Just setting yourself back like hours. Oh, yeah, you definitely need like 100% There always can be more to study and you can know something a little bit better. Yeah Some people like the pressure of you know having a time crunch. I do not I do not like that I don’t like it either. Yes other people they might But I don’t think that you will in medical school is not a fun feeling Yeah, that’s for sure like even whenever you do study every day you still feel like you haven’t
Sam: Yeah, I can only imagine what it would be like if I procrastinate Yeah, and it’s even like procrastinate like even like two days or two or three days. That’s that’s all Section yep, and then you’re behind that’s kind of the thing is information keeps coming It really doesn’t you sometimes have the option to you know Not watch the lectures. Yeah, you know watch them later But again, you’re just kind of putting yourself behind so one day of not studying is next to day on the weekend that you have to do Yeah, if you do two days In a row or three days in a row now you’re trying to study material from three days ago while giving information from today Yeah, and everything is jumbled. It’s very very difficult All organized and then ready for the test. So yeah, it’s very it’s very difficult But once you get into a groove and figure it out then you’re good. It’s just I
Sam: Really do think that first couple months of medical school is super tough because everybody’s just trying to survive and trying to figure out Stuff and kind of go from there
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So so you’re ending your first year. So now you’re gonna have a set of first years coming in So what would you say to them about when should they start thinking about their
Sam: That’s a good question. I think that in your first year it doesn’t matter so much Like in the end the your medical school faculty Probably tell you this to like just focus on your great as good as you can do Which is true? It’s really really difficult and like you can have an idea of what you want your specialty to be in mind Probably not gonna change very much about what you do. Yeah, so you don’t have to have it It starts coming maybe a little bit more into play like second third and fourth year and you know sometimes Those positions might not even know they don’t even know and that’s like super common and normal
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So people sometimes have no idea until like literally they’re trying to figure it out there
Sam: Thirty year when they’re applying right and so It might maybe come into to play with research Mm-hmm like if you are wanting to go into a field that you like you might be interested in
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you know that it is research heavy if you might want to err on the side of like, okay
Sam: Well, I should maybe be doing some research and that can kind of inform maybe stuff that you start doing your first year and Summer and second year, but it’s not necessary. Yeah, and I feel like a lot of the times Like you don’t have to have research that’s in the field of medicine that you want to do correct this kind of Great. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s a plus. You know, you can I think probably the main advantage of that would be the connections that you built Mm-hmm, and if you don’t have that that’s okay, too People get their like research and connections through third and fourth year when you’re meeting the doctors face-to-face Anyone’s yes, and so I really wouldn’t stress to get about it But if you have a Goal in mind that also can kind of help you too like for me I want to do orthopedics mm-hmm and so like I know that I have to do good and I have to be competitive and I have to get research and
Sam: Everything and so it kind of every everything is kind of framed with that in mind. Yeah, and so
Sam: You have like a goal that you’re working towards it makes it You’re in that sense. Yeah, I don’t really think it’s a different. Yeah, no, I totally agree I mean, and you don’t realize that you don’t actually go through the actual special teas and
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So it’s okay to not know or have five, you know, yeah, just thinking about what you want to do. I do tell
Sam: My pre-medical students like when you come in think just think about the pathway of going either medicine or surgery I think that’s just like an easier way to break it up because I think when you do go in Anatomy which is gonna be every medical school no matter where you go. Do MD Caribbean anywhere you go They’re always starting to trust an atom. Yep, and either you like it you don’t I mean, I don’t know anybody who’s like, it’s kind of okay like yeah, the surgeons love it and the medicine folks are like no way Yep, so I think that’s a Good Like a fork and then you can come slowly start figuring out stuff But I think it’s really important about the research you don’t and you don’t have to do the research in what you go into I think I did some research in he monk and that was really fun and very different and now I do work predicts But yeah, so it’s it’s that was just
Sam: Cool field to me so perfect
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So tell me about What are small habits that can lead to
Sam: Big opportunities later whether it’s in medical school or pre-med
Sam: Hmm, I think that being nice to everybody Yeah, I take you for to grade one I think so I think it’s really easy Like especially coming out of underground where you’re at that, you know, usually the top of your class. Yes to maybe have an ego Or to kind of have that kind of attitude, which is totally fine. You should be confident 100% Whenever you get into medical school everybody there is like you. Yeah, everybody Everybody’s top of the class. Yeah, so You kind of have to learn like you can I have to put it aside? You have to you have to be nice to everybody
Sam: That’s everybody like don’t say anything
Sam: That you wouldn’t say it to somebody’s face. Yeah, if you would say something mean to somebody’s face you can go ahead, I guess Yeah, I don’t really know if that would go so well, but you can yeah, you can do it. Yeah, but I think it really will You know get you pretty far because you’re gonna do it you’ll develop a reputation and that’s gonna last in your class is gonna last amongst the faculty and Like you have to remember that your class is eventually gonna be future physicians to Your peers and so like everybody kind of knows each other in medicine and so your reputation usually will precede you in those cases Mm-hmm. Especially when you’re on a way rotations or whatever it is. Yeah If you’re nice to people people will remember that. Yeah, if you’re not nice, they will remember that and a lot of what you know, it kind of comes down to
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What I’ve heard from people who are matching in the residency is now is it like a lot of the the whole additional rotation is feeling like Are you a sit with people? Absolutely and yes?
Sam: I know and sometimes it can I will say sometimes it can be hard because when you go and I’m a record
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And sometimes you get beaten up as a medical student and you get yelled at and whatnot and it does take a lot if you
Sam: I mean it took me a lot to just check my mouth, you know, just be like, okay I’m here. I’ll just take it and it kind of sucks, but you know, then I know, you know because if you do Something then that’s gonna come back on you and it’s and I always hope it was just temporary like it’s literally temporary This isn’t your your practice. This isn’t your life like You’re just here to learn you’re doing your training that kind of thing, but I think that that is a fantastic point is just be nice Just be a good human so I’ll get down Pretty far in life period. Well, good. We talked about your fitness stuff. That’s really important for you and so
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: What do you think that or?
Sam: Something else is a non academic habit that has improved your performance the most I definitely think of that house Yeah, it gives you a chance to decompress
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you know, believe yourself a little bit of stress, which is always high in medical school. Mm-hmm And so like having a point to reset and that could be going to the gym. It could be exercise
Sam: Whatever it is or hanging out with your friends. Just anything that’s not school. Yeah, usually We’ll kind of do that for you as long as you’re not like, you know, constantly worried about it Which sometimes is hard to yeah, but Like any little break or anything that you enjoy doing that you get to do like video games, whatever it is Mm-hmm. I guarantee that it will help you with your academic performance Yes, burnout is totally real. Mm-hmm. You really want to try to avoid that as best as you can I think that it comes for everybody though. Yeah, I really do
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And so you kind of want to just be proactive with it and you know know how much you’re able to take And make sure that you take the steps to try to prolong
Sam: That time as much as possible. Yeah, so do things that you enjoy and don’t skip out of them Like if your friends are asking you to go do something, but you might have something that you want to study Like consider it, you know, don’t just you know blow them off because you have to study Right really think like is the studying time gonna be effective? Am I gonna learn something from it? Maybe yeah, but you probably Also have a lot of fun. Yeah, that’s important to remember too Yeah, I always thought when I could study and I kept like reading the same slide like over or the same paragraph I was like okay close the book. Yes. Yeah, it’s time because you’re just spinning your wheels
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And you’re just not being effective and I think that you have to study so efficient and effective
Sam: In medical school. I can’t just be like I’m just gonna read a couple things like it’s a very like like active Studying to keep your brain moving and going Thinking all the time and you have to train your brain to be able to do that
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: And I think that’s that will carry you through residency and all your board exams and everything like that
Sam: It’s just a whole different way of rewiring your brain. Yeah If anybody is like taking the in cap before you’re sitting for any long exam
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Like that like towards the end of it you feel so terrible when you don’t you just want to pick random answers?
Sam: Yeah, I was like this sucks It can get like that every single day if you’re not careful Mm-hmm. You like really have to look for the signs and make sure you take the breaks like at school We like go and walk so around the building or whatever it is Yeah, or like if you need to go home or change the scene Like do what you have to do and figure out what works for you You can do pretty good. Yeah, if you notice you’re you know really starting to like fog up Just quit it just quit it. I hear yeah, it’s better Just take that little 20 minute break or whatnot or we’re getting to the end a little bit We’re gonna go through our rapid spire. So the User just kind of the one answer thing so we’ll start best study resource for you. I’d say the lecture PDFs Everything good enough Nice very good and these are lecture PDFs that your teachers give you afterwards. Yeah whenever they give the lecture whatever their presentation is
Sam: That’s what they can test you on nice. Okay. That’s really good Most overrated study method. I think it would be using on key by itself and not doing Okay, yeah, I think Has mentioned on key I did not have on key when I was medical school so I had to look that up But that seems like a very popular way. Yeah to study. Okay, number one productivity Don’t procrastinate. Yeah, it’s a good schedule. I was but I was a very good one Your go-to stress reliever for me. It’s a gym. Yep. Yeah, that’s great and then One thing every pre-med should stop doing I say worrying. Yeah, don’t worry about it I know it’s so hard. Yeah, I think if you if you To be in this space, I think you’ll get here. Yeah, so trust yourself. That’s great I’m gonna end it kind of last one. So if you could give one piece of advice to every
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: Future medical student, what would it be would be the not worry or something else?
Sam: That’s probably would it be yeah, don’t worry. Everybody feels terrible in medical schools. Yeah, it’s super hard for Everybody and so you can after remember everybody’s in the same boat Some people have a more difficult time than others, but I guarantee everybody is having some kind of difficult time. Yeah, so you’re not Alone in that I agree. I agree. You’re all kind of starting it like you know starting line Everybody’s kind of the same doesn’t matter where you came from how many years been out of school If you skipped college, you know, it doesn’t it doesn’t even matter you guys are all in the same time
Dr. Tracye Lawyer: So I think that’s super important. Yeah, well Sam. Thank you. This has been amazing. This is such great information
Sam: So, right. Thanks for listening you guys. See you next episode
